New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)

[DRG]

Remco, I do appreciate your input here. You've been around long enough to know that there is no way, no matter what we do, could we possibly keep everyone happy .

There's just too many ways of looking at these issues. I'm reminded of " In service" debates that have occurred in the past where someone digs up info that some weapons or vehicle was "introduced" at a certain date but no one really knows for certain if that was the date the first one rolled off the assembly line or was delivered to the depot or was delivered to the troops for familiarization or the first date it actually entered front line service. Little details like that are rarely available so it's a judgment call for introduction dates. A vehicle could be given to troops for the first time in October for example but unless it's a minor modification of an existing unit there is little chance it would enter full operational service right away and that is why so many in service dates are January and probably if the issue was really dug into most of those January in service dates are wrong but really.....so what ? It a game not a historical record and really how many "historical records" do NOT have someone saying they are wrong ? The same is true for weapons taken out of front line service. A lot of assumptions need to be made , were they sent immediately to the wreaking yard ? Were they warehoused and if so, how long and if they were warehoused what other use could they have but to be used as they were intended "just in case" a conflict arose. As you astutely noted........ the entire POINT of this game is to simulate combat that in most cases never occurred. Does this mean we should include every weapon that was tested but not developed ?? NO !!--- but occasionally things like this crop up where including them helps game play and therefore becomes a "design decision" by us.... the game designers.

We are criticised when we are too flexible and allow a certain amount of ' What if" and criticised when we aren't . That was my entire point of mentioning the "experimental " SP guns in the WW2 Russian OOB.

The "RPG-1 issue is really rather amusing under the circumstances. Someone, long in the past, dug up info that something called an "RPG-1" that may or may not have existed in the late 1940's and maybe it was a native Russian device or MAYBE it referred to captured panzerfaust stocks and MAYBE the "truth" was a little of both but it seemed like something WAS in existence and since this gave the Russian OOB an infantry AT device from the beginning of 1946 until a bit past the introduction of the RPG-2. It's seemed a fair compromise even though the info on it was sketchy but we did need something to fill the gap on the OOB and that served the purpose. Nobody... and I mean NOBODY at the time would have ever imagined the amount of time that would be wasted years later debating this issue. And this "issue" goes much deeper and is a bigger PITA than is obvious here. In the Russian MBT OOB this is one weapon slot and ONE unit to deal with if we do deal with it ( "RPG-1"s also exist in the MBT Polish and Czech OOB's and is a separate PITA to deal with ) the biggest problem is the WW2 Russian OOB where 10 units currently use an "RPG-1" and it's looking like they are going to find themselves carrying " something else" if I decide to pull the weapon out.

The entire issue is developing into a very a big headache over what is really a very trivial "error" . It's all so MUCH easer to deal with when all you have to do is change an OOB and not consider the impact those changes make on other parts of the game.

However, in some cases simple problems can cause big headaches and problems that appear less simple can turn out to have simple fixes and in this case the "fix" is somewhere in between and should keep almost everyone happy

Don

[KraMax]

The USSR have anti-tank granades RPG-43 and RPG-6. After war all RPG-43 were not used in army and have been transferred to use in friendly allied armies. After war in the Soviet army granades RPG-6 were used.
I think after WW2 - panzerfaust also have been transferred to use to the allied countries USSR. There are no data confirming, that in armies were used after WW2 panzerfaust or RPG-1. In any lists of anti-tank tools of the USSR consisting on arms - is not present RPG-1 or panzerfaust.

[KraMax]

narwan said:

Yes I know and if the soviet union had gone to war in that period these would have been used by it's troops.
Your argument that they didn't use them historically is moot since there was no actual major war the soviet union was involved in in that period and the game assumes that there is!

The same applies to many other OB's. The dutch OB for the 80's is full of stuff that was not part of the active armed forces but which was still kept in some warehouse. By your reasoning this equipment would not have been used (for reserve forces or to replace combat losses) had the warsawpact and NATO gone to war in the 80's.
I can assure you it would have, just like the captured panzerfausts and experimental RPG1's would have been used by the soviets in the late 40's if the soviet union and the western allies had gone to war then.
The game models not just what's on the active inventory of armies in specific historical period's but also what has been stockpiled and mothballed and COULD have been used had war broken out.

I have understood you.
Whether means it, what if we were at war in 80th years with the western countries, we would have trophy TI, the ATGM-western manufacture, western tanks, etc.?

[KraMax]

We have change units.

change units:
units 169-171, 203 - change available from 2011.

To download it it is possible from here: www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.obf

or

www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.zip

[DRG]

KraMax


I'm having difficulty finding information that the 120mm Nona gun is issued with cluster munitions

The best I can find is something like this ......."capable of firing Rocket Assisted Projectiles (RAPs), 120mm HE-fragmentation, illuminating, smoke and incendiary mortar bombs including those designed for NATO's 120mm mortars."


......and none of those mentioned are cluster munitions.

If you could provide me with a source for this information I need it would be appreciated

Don

[Marek_Tucan]

HRW submunitons report (A GLOBAL OVERVIEW OF
EXPLOSIVE SUBMUNITIONS, 2002, don't have link but have PDF in my archive, may send it) lists a 120mm cluster shell with 35 DPICM for Russian Federation, however it might be pretty faulty or listing just experimental and never fielded warheads lumped together with real ones.

[DRG]

OK, Thanks. I have that document now and I am digging deeper



Don

[cbreedon]

DRG said:
The bottom line is this OOB will destroy any scenario in the game that use the Russian OOB. We have already had one "bug" report from someone who couldn't figure out why the Russian scenarios in the game suddenly were a mess so anyone contemplating using this OOB should not be lulled into the false belief that this will not make a total mess out of the existing scenarios because it will. Don

This was me... I have been playing this game since the 1990's and should have know what I had done without posting a query about it. I guess I had downloaded and installed this mod and had completely forgotten that I had done it. I do like the mod though.

[KraMax]

Dear DRG.

The big working out of set of an ammunition was made in the USSR in the mid 80th. For Nona - there is a set of shells, here their list:
Shells:
3VOF110
3VOF111
3VO34 - cluster munition + HEAT-fighting elements
3VO32 - cluster munition + HEAT-fighting elements
3VOF54
3VOF54-1
3VOF55
3VOF55-1
3VBK14
3OF49
3VOF49
3VOF51
3OF50
3BK19

Mines:
3VOF79
53-VOF-843B
3VOF68
3VOF53
3VOF69
3VOF57
3V34
3VS24
53-VD-843
3VD17
3VD16

+Any western shells 120mm

The information is received from the open sources, here one of them:
http://www.russarms.com/land/rva/tec...ona-s-base.asp

Here there is a discussion of these systems (these are sites of a military-air landing):
http://desantura.ru/forums/index.php? showtopic=3244&st=80
http://desantura.ru/forums/lofiversi...t2352-100.html

And here, the ORDER of the PRESIDENT of the RUSSIAN FEDERATION FROM MAY, 28TH, 1998 N 190-RP ABOUT PARTICIPATION of the RUSSIAN ORGANIZATIONS In the INTERNATIONAL EXHIBITION of ARMS And the MILITARY TECHNICS "EUROSATORY ' 98":
http://infopravo.by.ru/fed1998/ch06/akt20362.shtm
Here it is written about these shells.

Best regards.

[KraMax]

We have change units.

change units:
units 473, 474 - change available until 2020.
units 436, 437 - change radio code 82 and 92

formation:
606-609 - change available from 2011

To download it it is possible from here: www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.obf

or

www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.zip