Crossbows vs. Longbows

[Meglobob]

Heh, Agema read your private messages, if you have not done so already!

Sorry to interrupt the discussion!

[sum1lost]

Originally Posted by Incabulos

Just watched a history channel special on xbows and longbows, an also a show on the battle of Crecy.

The longbow archers fired a rate of roughly 12 arrows a minute. So every 5 seconds.

The range of the longbow outpaced the range of the xbow until you get into the composite xbows which were certainly not cheap and were very labour intensive and because of cranking the rof on those was terrible.

Sheer numbers of arrows and the fact that England was using the longbow during a period of mounted nobility meant the longbow was incredibly effective at halting charges. The lack of penetration at long ranges is one reason English longbowmen were trained to aim for the horses. Longbow groups were also more mobile than xbow groups who used pavises from behind which they fired. (although they were left on the baggage train at crecy).

What it boiled down to in the programs was that whoever has to charge the enemy is going to hurting, thhose charging longbows through sheer volume and barrages at multiple points in the charge. Those charging at pavise protected xbows would be killed at a much closer range.

But the biggest purpose of the xbows and thier pavises was to provide a line of defence and retreat from which the knights could charge.

Of course at Crecy the French knights ended up killing the Genoese xbows when they routed, I guess the 'cowardice'(they were being slaughtered) sent them into a rage. Just one of many errors that helped the English succeed against such odds.

For what it is worth- Drawing a full longbow is incredibly muscle intensive. Firing at the max rate of fire was only possible for a minute or two before even the most comptent bowmen gave out. Realistically, after the initial volley most bowmen would pace themselves to a much slower rate of fire- faster than a crossbow, but not to the point of firing every few seconds.

On top of that, any archer who fired at the speed people have been describing would empty his quiver within minutes. The most arrows I have ever read of an archer carrying was 60, and that was in multiple quivers, and they were smaller arrows for a horsebow. (Marco Polo's decription of a mongolian warrior)

[Incabulos]

accounts of Crecy describe porters continually bringing arrows from the supply lines.

It also described that a ferocious rate was only needed for the first charge. The resulting field of long arrows and crippled horses etc meant the second charge was much less of a threat.

A barrier of dead horses was actually achieved. Of course Crecy is an example of where the longbow really shined, and was put to great tactical use. The terrain forced a difficult charge and approach from a single direction.

In modern tests they did show that it wasn't until the last 1/4 of a charge (when the knights were almost at the base of the hill) that the arrows penetrated armor. The first 1/4 of the charge and almost no arrows hit even the horse. The last 1/4 of the charge almost all the arrows would hit. The targets looked like hedgehogs.\\they also timed the charge to cover the field and it took 40 seconds. That is an awful long time to be under fire from that many longbows. Crossbows simply would not have been as effective.

Seems to me crossbows would excel at taking down slower moving heavily armoured infantry.

[Lingchih]

Heh, join a game MachineGun. Would like to have you in the game.

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by Lingchih

Heh, join a game MachineGun. Would like to have you in the game.

Perhaps as MA/LA Marignon? Hordes of crossbowmen boosted with Flaming Arrows, perhaps Wind Guide later on, protected by a small screen of infantry. Preferably shielded, to protect from friendly fire.

In fact, MA Marignon vs MA Man would be an interesting matchup. Marignon has crossbowmen, decent infantry and good cavalry, and the inquisition+Paladins and the comment in the manual imply that it's inspired by Spain with some French influence. Man is English/Britain, with longbowmen, elite mounted and unmounted knights, and worse normal infantry.

Inquisition versus the witches of Avalon makes for even funnier matchup.

[Incabulos]

'Burn the witch!'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MONKS: [chanting]
Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem.
[bonk]
Pie Iesu domine,...
[bonk]
...dona eis requiem.
[bonk]
Pie Iesu domine,...
[bonk]
...dona eis requiem.
CROWD:
A witch! A witch!
[bonk]
A witch! A witch!
MONKS: [chanting]
Pie Iesu domine...
CROWD:
A witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! We've found a witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! We've got a witch! A witch! A witch! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! We've found a witch! We've found a witch! A witch! A witch! A witch!
VILLAGER #1:
We have found a witch. May we burn her?

CROWD:
Burn her! Burn! Burn her! Burn her!
BEDEVERE:
How do you know she is a witch?
VILLAGER #2:
She looks like one.
CROWD:
Right! Yeah! Yeah!
BEDEVERE:
Bring her forward.
WITCH:
I'm not a witch. I'm not a witch.
BEDEVERE:
Uh, but you are dressed as one.

WITCH:
They dressed me up like this.
CROWD:
Augh, we didn't! We didn't...
WITCH:
And this isn't my nose. It's a false one.
BEDEVERE:
Well?
VILLAGER #1:
Well, we did do the nose.
BEDEVERE:
The nose?
VILLAGER #1:
And the hat, but she is a witch!
VILLAGER #2:
Yeah!
CROWD:
We burn her! Right! Yeaaah! Yeaah!
BEDEVERE:
Did you dress her up like this?
VILLAGER #1:
No!
VILLAGER #2 and 3:
No. No.
VILLAGER #2:
No.
VILLAGER #1:
No.
VILLAGERS #2 and #3:
No.
VILLAGER #1:
Yes.
VILLAGER #2:
Yes.
VILLAGER #1:
Yes. Yeah, a bit.
VILLAGER #3:
A bit.
VILLAGERS #1 and #2:
A bit.
VILLAGER #3:
A bit.
VILLAGER #1:
She has got a wart.
RANDOM:
[cough]
BEDEVERE:
What makes you think she is a witch?
VILLAGER #3:
Well, she turned me into a newt.
BEDEVERE:
A newt?
VILLAGER #3:
I got better.
VILLAGER #2:
Burn her anyway!
VILLAGER #1:
Burn!
CROWD:
Burn her! Burn! Burn her!...
BEDEVERE:
Quiet! Quiet! Quiet! Quiet! There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
VILLAGER #1:
Are there?
VILLAGER #2:
Ah?
VILLAGER #1:
What are they?
CROWD:
Tell us! Tell us!...
BEDEVERE:
Tell me. What do you do with witches?
VILLAGER #2:
Burn!
VILLAGER #1:
Burn!
CROWD:
Burn! Burn them up! Burn!...
BEDEVERE:
And what do you burn apart from witches?
VILLAGER #1:
More witches!
VILLAGER #3:
Shh!
VILLAGER #2:
Wood!
BEDEVERE:
So, why do witches burn?
[pause]
VILLAGER #3:
B--... 'cause they're made of... wood?
BEDEVERE:
Good! Heh heh.
CROWD:
Oh, yeah. Oh.
BEDEVERE:
So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood?
VILLAGER #1:
Build a bridge out of her.
BEDEVERE:
Ah, but can you not also make bridges out of stone?
VILLAGER #1:
Oh, yeah.
RANDOM:
Oh, yeah. True. Uhh...
BEDEVERE:
Does wood sink in water?
VILLAGER #1:
No. No.
VILLAGER #2:
No, it floats! It floats!
VILLAGER #1:
Throw her into the pond!
CROWD:
The pond! Throw her into the pond!
BEDEVERE:
What also floats in water?
VILLAGER #1:
Bread!
VILLAGER #2:
Apples!
VILLAGER #3:
Uh, very small rocks!
VILLAGER #1:
Cider!
VILLAGER #2:
Uh, gra-- gravy!
VILLAGER #1:
Cherries!
VILLAGER #2:
Mud!
VILLAGER #3:
Uh, churches! Churches!
VILLAGER #2:
Lead! Lead!
ARTHUR:
A duck!
CROWD:
Oooh.
BEDEVERE:
Exactly. So, logically...
VILLAGER #1:
If... she... weighs... the same as a duck,... she's made of wood.
BEDEVERE:
And therefore?
VILLAGER #2:
A witch!
VILLAGER #1:
A witch!
CROWD:
A witch! A witch!...
VILLAGER #4:
Here is a duck. Use this duck.
[quack quack quack]
BEDEVERE:
Very good. We shall use my largest scales.
CROWD:
Ohh! Ohh! Burn the witch! Burn the witch! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Ahh! Ahh...
BEDEVERE:
Right. Remove the supports!
[whop]
[clunk]
[creak]

CROWD:
A witch! A witch! A witch!
WITCH:
It's a fair cop.
VILLAGER #3:
Burn her!
CROWD:
Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn! Burn!...
BEDEVERE:
Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?
ARTHUR:
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
BEDEVERE:
My liege!
ARTHUR:
Good Sir Knight, will you come with me to Camelot and join us at the Round Table?
BEDEVERE:
My liege! I would be honored.
ARTHUR:
What is your name?
BEDEVERE:
'Bedevere', my liege.
ARTHUR:
Then I dub you 'Sir Bedevere, Knight of the Round Table'.

[JimMorrison]

This is the best thread ever.

Even if I didn't find myself described in that Troll List..... < sniff >

[Lingchih]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

This is the best thread ever.

Even if I didn't find myself described in that Troll List..... < sniff >

Thank you. I started the "best thread ever". I am honored.

Now, please make it stop.

Though a youtube link to the Monty Python bit would be better than the transcript.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Endoperez

Perhaps as MA/LA Marignon? Hordes of crossbowmen boosted with Flaming Arrows, perhaps Wind Guide later on, protected by a small screen of infantry. Preferably shielded, to protect from friendly fire.

In fact, MA Marignon vs MA Man would be an interesting matchup. Marignon has crossbowmen, decent infantry and good cavalry, and the inquisition+Paladins and the comment in the manual imply that it's inspired by Spain with some French influence. Man is English/Britain, with longbowmen, elite mounted and unmounted knights, and worse normal infantry.

Inquisition versus the witches of Avalon makes for even funnier matchup.

You forgot the best weapon of marignon. Flagellants.

[Incabulos]

I posted that from work.. nyet to youtube. But you are right, the timing and voices aren't done justice by the transcript.