MP: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI. Game Over. Team ACGHHS wins!

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

CBM has addressed many of the problems and continues to address them, but as a matter of philosophy will not make some changes no matter how necessary (no new spells, for example). The real point is that they apply to any MP game. The discussion is in this thread because the belief was expressed vanilla is balanced (its not).

Well I dont agree that CBM applies to any MP game. Some of the changes play up the player-vs-player at the detriment of some of the more fun aspects.

As to the reason for this conversation I believe it was:

Originally Posted by Septimius Severus

I still cling (perhaps niavely) to the assumption that the developers believed that every nation, properly helmed, had an equal chance of winning.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Sept, the developers not only failed to balance the game, they weren't trying to.

But I think its not that they didnt. I know for a fact that they put alot of work into it. But much of it would be in parts of the game that encourage alliances and role playing and variations beyond dueling. The perfect dueling balance is chess (everything matches except color of pieces and even the effects of that are arguable).

A sufficiently large map addresses early game concerns

Which could be said as "small maps create a balance problem".

And since everyone is going to tart farm, the person who can do it best wins.

I havent really seen that in my games.

Also, 50 provinces/player is *insane*. How many games like that have you seen start? Actually end? Without rampant quitting and general unhappiness about the game?

Many. Obviously small games are more numerous than large ones but thats part of the definition. Small equals fast and large equals long.

I am only convinced team games address issues if the people choosing nations for a team do so wisely.

Very good. Teams and alliances are ways for nations to balance their imperfections.

Obviously what nations are desirable are somewhat different in a team game environment, and depend on what nations are already on your team, but there are still winning and losing combinations, and winner/loser nations.

Exactly. And if those were fixed, it would tend to impact on the games that others prefer.

Balance should also concern itself with default settings. Unusual settings are obviously going to not necessarily be balanced - and that's more ok. But the defaults should offer something resembling reasonable balance.

And we again are in agreement.

So with 60+ nations in the game over 3 eras offering a huge wealth of different strategies it seems that some are weak and some are strong but everything has a response. Doesnt this seem abit different than "the developers not only failed to balance the game, they weren't trying to"? I understand that you are mad that the devs didnt balance your game but they did at least provide the means for that which is more than many developers do.

[Trumanator]

Well I dont agree that CBM applies to any MP game. Some of the changes play up the player-vs-player at the detriment of some of the more fun aspects.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Squirrelloid said that the problems apply to all games, not CBM.

But I think its not that they didnt. I know for a fact that they put alot of work into it. But much of it would be in parts of the game that encourage alliances and role playing and variations beyond dueling. The perfect dueling balance is chess (everything matches except color of pieces and even the effects of that are arguable).

KO has explicitly stated that balance was a secondary consideration. Also, you obviously haven't noticed that the majority of the games on these forums are 8-20 players and use CBM. The claim that the people who want balance only play duels and blitzes is utter BS.

I havent really seen that in my games.

How many MP games have you ever played Gandalf? SP has no place in a discussion on balance, since a) it doesn't matter and b) the AI is just too dumb.

Many. Obviously small games are more numerous than large ones but thats part of the definition. Small equals fast and large equals long.

Links to threads please? I would love to see who enjoys games with 50 provs per player.

I understand that you are mad that the devs didnt balance your game but they did at least provide the means for that which is more than many developers do.

Wait, didn't you say that the devs DID balance the game? I'm confused now. You are correct though that they did better than most developers in giving us the tool to balance it.

[KissBlade]

Originally Posted by Trumanator

Links to threads please? I would love to see who enjoys games with 50 provs per player.

Gandalf enjoys 50 provs per player. Didn't you know? Dom3 was designed to accommodate him exclusively. As he'll be happy to plug in the fact that he was one of the testers for the beta *eyeroll*. Now you know why we have nations like MA Argatha floating around.

[Squirrelloid]

I was trying to debate the issue, not the person, but lol.

[chrispedersen]

Personal discussion is unwarranted. And while I don't know about 50/person... Didn't legends of Faerun have 1000 provinces.. 4000?

Regardless, can we return the thread to NVV I think discussios of balance can be held else where.

[Gandalf Parker]

You know, Quantum_Mechani (the present maintainer of the CBM mod) is also one of the beta testers.
And Im quite aware of the population of this forum but dont consider that to be the entire game. Many more people bought, play, and download mods/maps than the ones here. Registering and being active on this forum is more for the purpose of competitive MP play.

And I have always said that I prefer solo. But I have also played MP with pretty much any expert player who has been around more than a couple of years including the devs.

But yes, lets not get the thread locked for personal attacks. Oh wait, that doesnt happen anymore.
OK go ahead.

[Squirrelloid]

Legends of Faerun was 400 provinces. And was also a big cluster**** that made all its players unhappy, or at least that's the impression I've gotten.

[Trumanator]

Well, it wasn't so much the size of the map as the plague of dropouts that screwed it over. Had it gone on though it probably would have become an issue.

[chrispedersen]

Hey, regarding NvV - isn't there anyone that can take over Helheim?

It looks like TC got a turn in which is actually pretty phenomenal. Truman you up to take on a custodial role?

Anyone on the Blesseds want to play hellheim too?

[chrispedersen]

Hrm.

Well, its 45 minutes after hosting, and I still don't have a turn in email.

Also the website said that TC submitted a turn - however the stale page says that TC did not submit a turn (nor hellheim)

help? comments?