MP: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI. Game Over. Team ACGHHS wins!

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

No the timer does not reflect a 24 hour extension.
Ive seen the request, and the explanation, but no response.

But it does show that we still have 12 hours before this should be a problem (unless we get 16 files turned in).

Well, thanks for looking into it at least 12 hours is going to be cutting it pretty close for me I fear, as I will not have access to my computer again until very late tonight. Hopefully it will be enough.

[Gandalf Parker]

I meant we have 12 hours to allow Septimius or Melnorjr to respond.
It hasnt been turned down either.

[rdonj]

Oh. That's what you meant. I thought there was some sort of server issue preventing it. I also thought that septimius had granted the request? Oh well, I'll leave melnorjr a message and see if I can't coax him into responding.



Edit:

Game Note:

DrPraetorious has requested a 24 hour delay, which I am graciously posting for him to this thread for the benefit of all.

That is the exact quote. I guess it is sort of nebulous though. On one hand, it could mean what I want it to say. On the other hand, it could mean that he is willing to grant the extension so long as no one objects. Or he could just be taunting us . It really is hard to pin down an exact meaning on that statement.

[Septimius Severus]

rdonj, have no fear, Septimius is here! Yes, I'm about to add the original 24 hours asked for to the timer. If more time is needed, I'm sure you or DrP will let me know.

Edit: That is, if it is still wanted/needed.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Septimius Severus

rdonj, have no fear, Septimius is here! Yes, I'm about to add the original 24 hours asked for to the timer. If more time is needed, I'm sure you or DrP will let me know.

Edit: That is, if it is still wanted/needed.

Thank you!!!!

I'm pretty sure we'll still need the time, because I am pretty sure we're going to need to get a sub for illuminated one.

[Septimius Severus]

Thank you rdonj for your defense and Squirrel for your commentary.

Squirrel, what I meant really meant was that in most strategy games, the developers/designers sort of "balance" the game by giving each faction certain strengths and weaknessess. Counters are provided for this, that and the other thing. Globals can be dispelled, tiny units can swarm and bring down much larger units, etc, etc. I think some things were put into the game for reasons the designers thought best. Of course the players know best, I'm just saying ...

I would like to preserve at least one game with a thread here on Shrapnel that is largely vanilla (with all its glorious imperfections and imbalances), not because I am anti-balance or anti-CBM, but rather because I think that it is important for players, especially noobs to play the game vanilla in order to appreciate the extensive balance modifications that CBM makes. Perhaps I am a bit of a purist, but I believe also that players should have a choice as well. And there were some AI considerations as well.

I remember when I played Space Empires, one could join either a vanilla game or one using Capt'n Kwok's balance mod (I wonder if Kwok and QM are related?), both types were readily available. I'd like that to be the case with Dom3 as well. Aside from Gandalf's server, it seems they are getting harder, and harder to find.

Rdonj, Chris came up with some great ideas for keeping team alternates in the loop and interested, aside from giving them forum access which I thought was a good idea as well, they can be set to work gathering intel (maybe from IRC, isn't that where people gather to chat about the game or something?), researching, creating maps, etc. We need to find more ways to get them involved, perhaps letting your alternates play a turn or two every now and then, to give em a chance to get some action in and keep em loose.

Of course there are some alternates, like Grudgebringer who turned out to be very reliable, and a few others I can't remember now, forgive me.

[rdonj]

Mmm, IRC intel gathering. I do go into IRC sometimes. But I am usually pretty good about not giving out interesting information about my team (squirrelloid is an IRC regular, as is maerlande... so when he was playing, I had to watch myself around him). Instead when asked about the game, I tend to talk about the mistakes I see other players making, or talk about things I know about other teams. Squirrel is pretty good about guarding his relevant information too. If I'm playing by myself though I am much more fast and loose with my tongue.

Some of those certainly seem like good ideas to keep up the interest level with the alternates. A bit too late for us devas, and some of them seem maybe a bit excessive, but especially taking a couple of turns every once in a while could definitely help there.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

I think the devs did a fantastic job of balance (but Im probably biased since I was involved in it). Especially since they took the difficult road to it. But the rock-paper-scissors balance for many different types of play is hard to see.

It is however, unarguable that the game is not balanced if you are looking at 1-to-1 balance for MP games on maps of 100-500 provinces which is where most of the comparisons occur (and the reason for a couple of mods)

I think a standard of balance that requires more than 500 provinces is not a good standard of balance. Games at even 500 provinces just never end. And since the endgame looks the same for everyone... sure, if the map is big enough that you're starting endgame during your first war, then everyone is balanced. But that's both boring and uninteresting. There's no point in the research system if everyone is expected to be in endgame by the time they're fighting - might as well make all spells #researchlevel 0 at that point. Really, 300 provinces is too large, much less 500. And more than 15 provinces/player is definitely too many.

The real problem is that some nations have a really hard time surviving early game given the unit rosters, spells available, and so on. With a reasonable number of provinces/player (so that the game has a high likelihood of actually ending), you're almost guaranteed to have at least one enemy capital ~3 provinces away from your own. Which means you could very well lose a war by the end of year 1, especially against an opponent who spent pretender resources for the early game.

Arguing that very large maps are the way to achieve balance is also clearly not what was intended by the developers. The whole point of sacred bless strategies and awake pretenders is to be strong during the early game - and those strategies lose power the later into the game you go. Clearly maps are supposed to be of a size where taking that kind of strategic option is supposed to have a commensurate benefit. The first problem is that some sacreds can't be defended against effectively by some nations, even if you did take a strong bless or an awake SC. CBM tries to fix this by making many of these 'too good' options more expensive, and thus harder to rush with as early. Spending pretender resources on the early game should give you an advantage, but it should not be an insurmountable advantage that virtually guarantees you a kill against one or more nations.

The second problem is that the additional expansion afforded by an awake SC or strong sacreds often over-compensate for whatever bad scales you chose to take - ie, good scales in many categories are insufficiently good relative to the advantage gained by sacking the scale for a better pretender or bless. CBM tries to fix this by improving scales, but in many cases it hasn't gone far enough or can't go far enough given modding capabilities. (IMO and for example, Lk3 should absolutely prevent bad events from occurring - spending 120 points on Lk3 is often a poor expenditure even given the boost luck has already received in CBM. Of course, such a change is not moddable.) This is a nation problem because nations benefit differentially from sacking scales for strong blesses, based on the strength of their sacreds. Taking negative scales should involve a noticeable trade-off, not be something you do as a matter of course.

Basically, it isn't unreasonable to expect that nations be relatively balanced (that is, have some sort of trick that helps them against any particular style of attack) at every phase of the game. The reason to have spells accessible by research is to cause the game to change dynamically as research is accessed, and the game should be interesting across the entire spectrum from no research to full research. It fails on both ends right now. At low research, some nations just destroy others. At high research everyone summons tarts or loses.

[Septimius Severus]

Wow, Squirrel is in the know. What depth and detail. I knew right away when he joined us in NvV, this was a noob that was extraordinary. Gandalf, what have you, or anyone else to say in defence of vanilla? Is there any reason to play MP without CBM? What about games with a non-competitive bent, learning games, certain team games, etc. There does seem to be a certain amout of hyper-competitiveness going around.

Btw, if we can reach 35,000+ views we shall rank 4th as the most viewed thread on Shrapnel.

Well I put in the 24 hour extension and now it reads -9 hours till hosting. I've sent an e-mail to Gandalf.

Edit: Bingo on the second try after Gandalf fixed it. 34 hours should be aplenty, now lets have those turns please.

[Gandalf Parker]

[quote=Squirrelloid;727784]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

I think a standard of balance that requires more than 500 provinces is not a good standard of balance. Games at even 500 provinces just never end. And since the endgame looks the same for everyone... sure, if the map is big enough that you're starting endgame during your first war, then everyone is balanced. But that's both boring and uninteresting. There's no point in the research system if everyone is expected to be in endgame by the time they're fighting - might as well make all spells #researchlevel 0 at that point. Really, 300 provinces is too large, much less 500. And more than 15 provinces/player is definitely too many.

Arguing that very large maps are the way to achieve balance is also clearly not what was intended by the developers.

I agree that the balance by large maps was not what the devs did. But large maps ARE part of the game. That are many variations in Dom3 other than 2 to 4 nations on small maps. I have no problem with blitz-duels but Dom3 wasnt made just for that. In order to tweak balance for a specific type of Dom3 game it was expected to use a mod (which is what we do).