MP: Morla MA noob game (running)

[shatner]

Originally Posted by triqui

My mistake was not building solid NAPS, with at least one of my neighbours. Assuming those NAPS would had been respected, I would be facing an easier midgame and my plan would be working better. However, it didn't work, so I will have to change my way to fight and face both of you, struggling to survive. That's life.

Or undeath, as the case may be. I am deliberately trying to play differently in each MP game I am in, just to get a feel for the MP experience. In my first MP game ever (which is still ongoing) I'm playing as EA T'ien Ch'i and being super-honorable. In this game, when Jotunhiem and I agreed your empire needed a haircut, we decided to sow a little misinformation along the way.

That said, I was deliberate in never offering nor accepting an NAP from you. When you smelled BS and demanded one, I came clean instead. I used weasel words and deliberately left some truths out when dealing with you but I am not, nor ever will be, a pact-breaker. For example, Marignon and I have a fairly long NAP agreement in place. I will not be crossing his border in any way (troops, remote attack spells, even anonymous attack spells) while that agreement holds true. And given how busy I'm likely to be for the next umpteen turns, I'm not likely to want to wage war on Marignon even then.

---

Before all the warring and the scheming, back during an innocent time of murdering indies, I was trying to hire cheap researchers, build castles and expand with cheap-but-effective archer+tower shield troops against the indies. Then Marignon showed up with water blessed Knights of the Chalice and ruined both of my expansion armies. It would have been 3 or 4 turns of frantic research and expensive re-arming before I would have had a chance of even slowing those guys down so I ran with my tail between my legs and cried "peace!" And when Marignon said "sure, for another three of your provinces" I said "Sure!" because keeping peace between me and Marignon at that moment was about the most important thing I could do unless I wanted to completely de-rail my early game booming.

Diplomacy can suck when you are at a disadvantage and the other guys knows that, but it is often better than the alternatives.

[SpaceViking21]

In addition, stagnation is death in these games (as I'm painfully learning as my role in my other MP game ends). In that one, I was a peacefulish, isolationist Niefelheim focused mostly on research than gaining land. I put off a war that should have happened so much earlier to get a little more research done, and when I finally started and ended that war, I was immediately consumed by the conquered nation's neighbor and have only a couple of provinces left (though he's been stalling on finishing me because of my other neighbor, who went to war with him once I got invaded).

Basically, we both needed to expand and eliminate some competition, and we both already had NAPs with our other neighbors, so you ended up with the short straw.

[Immaculate]

Phew

[triqui]

Originally Posted by shatner

Or undeath, as the case may be. I am deliberately trying to play differently in each MP game I am in, just to get a feel for the MP experience. In my first MP game ever (which is still ongoing) I'm playing as EA T'ien Ch'i and being super-honorable. In this game, when Jotunhiem and I agreed your empire needed a haircut, we decided to sow a little misinformation along the way.

That said, I was deliberate in never offering nor accepting an NAP from you. When you smelled BS and demanded one, I came clean instead. I used weasel words and deliberately left some truths out when dealing with you but I am not, nor ever will be, a pact-breaker. For example, Marignon and I have a fairly long NAP agreement in place. I will not be crossing his border in any way (troops, remote attack spells, even anonymous attack spells) while that agreement holds true. And given how busy I'm likely to be for the next umpteen turns, I'm not likely to want to wage war on Marignon even then.

---

Before all the warring and the scheming, back during an innocent time of murdering indies, I was trying to hire cheap researchers, build castles and expand with cheap-but-effective archer+tower shield troops against the indies. Then Marignon showed up with water blessed Knights of the Chalice and ruined both of my expansion armies. It would have been 3 or 4 turns of frantic research and expensive re-arming before I would have had a chance of even slowing those guys down so I ran with my tail between my legs and cried "peace!" And when Marignon said "sure, for another three of your provinces" I said "Sure!" because keeping peace between me and Marignon at that moment was about the most important thing I could do unless I wanted to completely de-rail my early game booming.

Diplomacy can suck when you are at a disadvantage and the other guys knows that, but it is often better than the alternatives.

I'm positive that no NAP was offered or accepted. That's my point. I should had enforced one. When both you and Jotun offered a "stable border" right in the begining, I accepted, trying to buy your confidence (as my plan was not being overly aggresive). I should had not accepted. I was the 800 lb gorilla in the early game, so I should had enforced my conditions, just like Marignon did. If you want stable borders, then NAP. If you don't NAP, it's free for all (and since you are not interested in NAP, then you are interested in waring me, so It's better being the one that jumps than the one that got jumped).

I, however, feel that I've been cheated. You offered a deal about not using your troops against me and giving me info about Jotun plans, I agreed, and I paid 400g for that. I did not receive what I paid for, and that's breaking a pact. Imho, that's not different to agreeing to pay 15 gems for a item, paying the gems, and never getting the item. That said, it's not the end of the world, I'm not going to rage-quite. Just that I feel I was cheated, and I can't change what I feel. However, this is a wargame, and we are entitled to war each other, sooner or later. Only one can win, and we all know that any alliance or deal made, must end sooner or later, becouse in the end game everybody has to kill everyone else.

It's not like I'm going to hate you and attack you on sight in any game we cross, I'm not that childish. It's just that I have a different approach to making deals. My approach is not the only valid, though, and we are here to learn. As I told you, I learnt a very valuable lesson today: "Don't trust."

There's a poker saying: in every poker table, there's a fish. If you don't know who the fish is, then you are the fish. I was the fish in this negotiation. I could had jumped on you much earlier, and I did not. Compassion is a bad trait in war

That said: I also like to play vastly different. I don't have a lot of MP games in my back (this is my sixth I think), and most of them were done with my RL friends (so it's a sliglthly different metagame). But, however, I like to make different tactics and approachs. In LA with Marignon (a nation often played as late-game and research) I tried to rush the first nation I crossed with (which happened to be you, to my dismay, as I got crushed). In this MA game, I built a very strong early game Nation with triple bless, but my strategy was actually better suited for midgame. I've learned in both games, and I'll do better in next games

To SpaceViking21: Let's see how short is the short Straw. I'm not dead yet :P

[Morla]

All right, the items, gems and gold trades are inviolable.

The NAP it´s not binding, but if two nations agree for 3 turn warning before breaking a NAP treaty, this treaty must be enforced , and should be posted in this thread(optional).

Banned are the usual things, copying Bogus orders, excessive Scout blocking(probing armies with scouts/commanders must be done in such a way so as not to block movement), filling other peoples Lab with crap to prevent his own forge.

Do all of you like this?

I think i should look through my english grammar books.

[SpaceViking21]

Originally Posted by triqui

To SpaceViking21: Let's see how short is the short Straw. I'm not dead yet :P

I meant the diplomatic short straw (as you ended up as the subject of the "hey, let's get this guy and split his stuff" talk), but point taken.

[triqui]

I acctually made a mistake in my sentence. I'm already dead. But that only makes me tougher :-)

[triqui]

Somebody should do a report, it'll be nice to hear how things are going arund the world. We know there's war between pythium and machaka, also between tienchi/jotun and ermor. What about he others? It sounds as if Man and Marignon have their border disputes too, dont they?

Later we should try to tell what strategies went wrong and which ones worked, both us and our oponents ones. Thus we could debate a bit, and learn stuff, so we can take off the "noob" label :-P

[Olm]

Originally Posted by triqui

Somebody should do a report, it'll be nice to hear how things are going arund the world. We know there's war between pythium and machaka, also between tienchi/jotun and ermor. What about he others? It sounds as if Man and Marignon have their border disputes too, dont they?

Later we should try to tell what strategies went wrong and which ones worked, both us and our oponents ones. Thus we could debate a bit, and learn stuff, so we can take off the "noob" label :-P

I really like your communication in this thread.
I am sorry that my time is very limited atm between my job, building a house, three small children and three games of dom3.
So I will not be communicating that much. Nonetheless I am happy about any diplomatic connection.

Yes, Marignon and me we have some problems. I have to be honest and say it all originated from me.
When I met Marignon he had the fewest provinces, the smallest army and the smallest income. Some rather weak indy provinces right beside his home were not taken, so I thought him an easy target and instantly attacked.
Learned very soon his knights of the chalice are really great, he wiped out one of my armies. He then was too bold and learned that my Knights of Avalon are not bad either, when he lost a good part of his army. Since then our knights have been more or less circling each other without another major fight.
Marignon is much tougher than I thought, and whats puzzeling me: I would have thought our war would drag on other parts of his realm, but the contrary is true. Marignon has improved in all statistics since the start of the war. He is now even the largest of the smaller nations. Don't know how he manages and don't know why he had so slow a start with those great knights. But in the end I am sure he will collapse to my forces. I just bring to much to the fight. Finally my bards and not my knights will decide this war.

Btw: Could anyone comment on the battle between Tien Chi and Machaka? Must have been epic. Really sorry I missed it.

[triqui]

Tien Chi is facing Ermor. Yes, the battle was epic, and despise good mages and priests siding with Tien Chi, the final outcome was, I think, vastly favorable to Ermor. Apostacy is such a great national spell for Ermor that I can not praise it enough, it insta kill enemy sacreds. And that include priestly mages. Solar Rays did quite a lot of damage to Ermor sacred Vestals, though, so it wasn't a free victory.

Right now in that side of the world war, Ermor has recuperated bassically all their initial territory, but 2 provinces (one of them with a castle). Ermor is recruiting more than he is losing, and seems holding well, although still at numeric disventage when you add up both Tien Chi and Jotun troops. The SC chasis of Jotun Good is quite impressive, and it won't be really easy to face them, but at the very least, Ermor has survived the initial "shock and awe" phase of surprise war, so probably would be a long war.

On your question about Marignon: I bet, like LA Ulm and other Resource Heavy nations, that Knights of Chalice aren't easy to build up. Probably he can recruit 1, maybe 2 in the first few turns. 1 soldier, no matter how good (with maybe the exception of Niefelheim sacreds), can't take province on their own. So Marignon probably was struggling to beat the indies around their capitol slowly. Once he cleared his capitol and got full resources, there's no doubt W9 Knights of the Chalice are a force to reckon. Lots of armies fold to them like there's no hope. Tien Ch'i was wise to surrender 3 provinces to them: armies of composite bows barely scratch them before they annhilate the entire army. Probably Marignon did accept the deal from Tien Ch'i becouse of you. Facing 2 opponents is not fun, and he sealed one of the fronts before facing you with his entire army. Without you in the equation, there is no reason for Marignon to seal a pact with Tien Ch'i for 3 provinces, becouse he could just take those 3 provinces, and everyone after that, before Tien Ch'i could get a proper counter from magic. With you facing him too, his diplomatic movement makes much more sense. You are a big country (biggest right now), so he need to focus all his attention on you, and the best way to do so is with a solid friend in his other side.

PS: Assasinating a giant sized fully armored Jotun Herse with lowly cheap skeletons is sooo dirty and fun