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  #101  
Old January 26th, 2009, 02:56 AM
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Default Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endoperez View Post

To my knowledge, this has never been the case, and I've played since the first Dominions game. Arrows, crossbow bolts, sling bullets, javelins and fire bolts cast by wizards will all arc the same way, given they hit the same place in the ground. They only differ in range and precision.

I might write answer to the rest of your post later.
Well it looks like Dominions might be passing my Fantasy game test. I know several people have painted me with the "emotional crossbow crusading fanboy troll burger" (say that 5 times fast) brush but all I'm looking for is some kind of parity in my games. Of course I'm still deciding. With a pricy grognard game like this I need to make sure it is right for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombre
Well I'm not trying to convince you, believe me. Especially after that stupid response. Since it's been demonstrated you don't know what you're talking about, it's cool for you to continue. No-one with any sense will listen.

It also now appears you've never even played dominions. You couldn't possibly be a troll
I made it clear in my first post that I never played Dominions. I saw all the Goons on Somethingawful praise it to high heaven. So I begin my mystic journey and I peruse the forum and see this topic. I think, "Oh how fortunate I get to see if my 'Fantasy game test' applies here." But instead of a unit comparison it's the same ol discussion seen anywhere on these game forums in this time period on this subject with the same sticky problems involved. I am not a troll. To troll one has to have an intent to troll. It was not my intent for you fly into ten orbits after you were corrected on what I said was a silly aside in the first place. I hope all that fresh air from zooming around was invigorating. I was cooped up in the God house reading free verse Bible poetry listening to some rapper talking on a..on a..whatchamacallit all day.


@Incabulos

There are different shows on the History Channel that come to different conclusions. Twelve is way too high. Even if that were the case generally arrows are not carried in numbers greater than 20 in the case of foot archers since packing them tight would crush the fletchings. In other words they would spray out in two minutes and waste a great deal of down time getting porters to refill them dropping the average way down. Crossbowman/Gunman could carry more ammo on their person.

The archers despite flat outnumbering the French horse scouts at Patay could not replicate their success. With a focused charge their horse killing expertise leaves much to be desired as well it seems.
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Last edited by MachingunJoeTurbo; January 26th, 2009 at 02:58 AM.. Reason: Clarified "game forums" meaning all medieval fantasy type games
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  #102  
Old January 26th, 2009, 04:13 AM
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Default Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachingunJoeTurbo View Post
I think, "Oh how fortunate I get to see if my 'Fantasy game test' applies here." But instead of a unit comparison it's the same ol discussion seen anywhere on these game forums in this time period on this subject with the same sticky problems involved. I am not a troll. To troll one has to have an intent to troll.
I agree with some of the points you made, but you look like a troll and speak like a troll. Even if it wasn't your intention, your opinion goes against everyone else, you can't give direct links to any sources and you haven't even bothered to try out the demo of the game whose mechanics you are debating. Not to mention that you only registered to take part in this discussion. Unfortunately my junior English dictionary (with pictures!) didn't have the definition of a troll, I'm forced to call you "an internet person who cannot agree with anyone else on anything" instead.



Why could a crossbowman carry more ammo than a longbowman? Wouldn't the bolts' fletching be ruined about as easily?

I've found few mentions of crossbows not being able to arc (e.g. in Final Fantasy Tactics: bows can arc, crossbows/guns can't), and about Chinese using line-fighting with crossbows. So your crossbow facts seem to be all right. Unfortunately, it's hard to find longbow facts that someone who doesn't believe the common knowledge would accept as a fact. I'd have to find someone who doubted longbow's usefulness, researched, and changed his mind.

Last edited by Endoperez; January 26th, 2009 at 04:21 AM..
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  #103  
Old January 26th, 2009, 04:35 AM

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Default Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachingunJoeTurbo View Post
I made it clear in my first post that I never played Dominions. I saw all the Goons on Somethingawful praise it to high heaven. So I begin my mystic journey and I peruse the forum and see this topic. I think, "Oh how fortunate I get to see if my 'Fantasy game test' applies here." But instead of a unit comparison it's the same ol discussion seen anywhere on these game forums in this time period on this subject with the same sticky problems involved. I am not a troll. To troll one has to have an intent to troll. It was not my intent for you fly into ten orbits after you were corrected on what I said was a silly aside in the first place. I hope all that fresh air from zooming around was invigorating. I was cooped up in the God house reading free verse Bible poetry listening to some rapper talking on a..on a..whatchamacallit all day.
Since you want to be treated like you still don't get it, I'll break it down for you. Read slowly and carefully.

OJD - 6,000 headwords, designed for 7 year olds, primarily containing words that are in a 7 year old's active vocabulary.

Comprehensive dictionary - roughly 500,000 headwords, for adults such as yourself(?), authoritative. Useful for looking up words you don't know. Perhaps you should switch to this big boy dictionary if you're having so much trouble with the OJD.

You don't know what you're talking about, can't admit it and keep posting 'you're wrong' to provoke a response. That's trolling. It was funny at first but you aren't coming up with anything new, so I won't mention it again.
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  #104  
Old January 26th, 2009, 04:45 AM
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http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_troll%3F

About Troll

The Vulgar Troll. These, the crudest of all trolls, make no attempt to hide their species. Often, they make racist comments, or they may post porn and other spam. Vulgars usually confine their comments merely to primitive, profane, off-topic observations. When you log into the Really Profound Serious Philosophical Discussions board and see the post, "I smell my farts," you've spotted the Vulgar Troll. Other species of troll sometimes revert to this form when cornered.

The Deceptive or "Classic" Troll. More sophisticated but often easily identified and exposed, the Classic Troll gratifies his ego by pretending to be someone or something he or she is not. Classics make up elaborate stories about themselves, sometimes weaving some amounts of truth into their lies. As a web of lies is difficult to build with consistency, however, Classics are often "outed" by other forumites. When this happens, Classic Trolls have a bag of tricks to which they turn:

Classic Troll Tactic Number 1: If the heat gets too much for you, claim it was all "a joke." In this way you can excuse any and all deceit by claiming people just weren't smart enough to "get" the humor of it.

– Classic Troll Tactic Number 2: Create another account, and log on pretending to be someone else, in order to show support for the Troll in Question (TiQ). These puppet accounts sometimes claim to be disinterested third parties. At other times they pretend to be "friends" of the TiQ.

Classic Troll Tactic Number 3: When your lies paint you into a corner, claim that your little brother, or some unnamed friend, has commandeered your account and made you look foolish. This technique can also be applied in claiming that the puppet account(s) you created may not, in fact, be disinterested third parties or friends, but that they are your relatives ("little brother" is most common) only trying to help support you.

Classic Troll Tactic Number 4: When nothing else works, claim that now, finally, you're telling the truth about all the lies you told before. Make up a fresh set of lies, and throw yourself on the mercy of the forumites.

Classic Troll Tactic Number 5: When all else fails, claim to be leaving forever. Trolls who claim they are leaving never do, of course; you can bet that anyone who proclaims, "I'm never coming back here," will most certainly at least check back for responses, and probably will not be able to resist posting again.

Classic Troll Tactic Number 6: Have a tantrum. When all their other tricks are exhausted, Classic Trolls will become angry and start shouting. Often they revert to Vulgar Trolls when this happens.

Classic Troll Tactic Number 7: The insincere apology. Similar to Tactic 4, this involves pretending to repent for one's trolling and is accompanied often by great melodrama. Insincere troll apologists hope that they'll be forgiven if only they act disgusted enough with their own behavior.

The Contrarian Troll. A sophisticated breed, Contrarian Trolls frequent boards whose predominant opinions are contrary to their own. A forum dominated by those who support firearms and knife rights, for example, will invariably be visited by Contrarian Trolls espousing their beliefs in the benefits of gun control. It is important to distinguish between dissenters and actual Contrarian Trolls, however; the Contrarian is not categorized as a troll because of his or her dissenting opinions, but due to the manner in which he or she behaves:

Contrarian Warning Sign Number One: The most important indicator of a poster's Contrarian Troll status is his constant use of subtle and not-so-subtle insults, a technique intended to make people angry. Contrarians will resist the urge to be insulting at first, but as their post count increases, they become more and more abusive of those with whom they disagree. Most often they initiate the insults in the course of what has been a civil, if heated, debate to that point.

Contrarian Warning Sign Number Two: Constant references to the forum membership as monolithic. "You guys are all just [descriptor]." "You're a lynch mob." "You all just want to ridicule anyone who disagrees with you."

Contrarian Warning Sign Number Three: Intellectual dishonesty. This is only a mild indicator that is not limited to trolls, but Contrarians display it to a high degree. They will lie about things they've said, pull posts out of context in a manner that changes their meanings significantly, and generally ignore any points for which they have no ready answers.

Contrarian Warning Sign Number Four: Accusing the accusers. When confronted with their trolling, trolls immediately respond that it is the accusers who are trolls (see Natural Predators below). Often the Contrarian will single out his most vocal opponent and claim that while he can respect his other opponents, this one in particular is beneath his notice.

Contrarian Warning Sign Number Five: Attempts to condescend. The Contrarian will seek refuge in condescending remarks that repeatedly scorn his or her critics as beneath notice – all the while continuing to respond to them.

Contrarian Warning Sign Number Six: One distinctive mark of Contrarian Trolls is that every thread in which they dissent quickly devolves into a debate about who is trolling whom. In the course of such a debate the Contrarian will display many of the other Warning Signs mentioned above.

The YerATroll. YerATrolls are those whining forumites who devote a tremendous amount of time and energy complaining about the tremendous amount of time an energy expended by Troll Bashers and Angry Forumites on the practice of troll-hunting. A self-righteous and hypocritical breed, YerATrolls spend all their time pointing fingers at everyone but trolls, petulantly demanding that their opinions be granted the significance the YerATroll believes they deserve. YerATrolls often start threads excoriating others for troll-hunting, all the while completely oblivious to the fact that they're engaging in trolling by picking fights with everyone else. One of the most ill-tempered of troll species, YerATrolls are characterized by a childish need for attention disguised as cynical nobility and pretensions of being "above it all."

The Agenda Troll. Agenda trolls are those participants who join a forum specifically to pursue an agenda of their own – often a feud or grudge with another member, or perhaps a dispute with some party not participating in that forum. When a flame war erupts on another board, for example, Agenda Trolls will follow their opponents to other forums in order to continue the spat.

Some Agenda Trolls are subject-matter oriented. An Agenda Troll who thinks Self-Defense Instructor X is a fraud, or who feels he has been ripped off or otherwise dealt with unfairly by Instructor X, will visit forums devoted to self-defense and martial arts in order to spread his or her negative opinion of Instructor X.

Agenda Trolls may also be of the milder Spam Agenda subspecies; these are Trolls who join a board specifically to advertise some venture of their own. They are not often troublesome, though their shameless plugging is met with varying degrees of irritation.

The Sophist Troll. Sophist Trolls, or "philotrolls," fancy themselves Enlightened Philosophers or Learned Experts of the highest order. Often well educated, Philotrolls are capable of speaking intelligently on a number of topics, and when the spirit moves them they can be worthwhile forum participants. Unfortunately, Sophist Trolls are an extremely hostile and intolerant species.

When confronted by opinions with which they do not agree – particularly when they do not see any means of successfully arguing their contrary views – Sophists resort (repeatedly) to a variety of intellectually dishonest tactics. Most often, this is characterized by an overly snide, condescending, patronizing attitude. Philotrolls consider anyone with whom they do not agree to be "immature," and are fond of quoting that old saw that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

When cornered they are quick to resort to personal attacks. A philotroll's bag of rhetorical tricks includes a variety of transparent ploys, such as willfully misinterpreting the opponent's words, committing Straw Man fallacies, accusing his or her opponents of engaging in the very tactics used by the philotroll, and so forth.

When engaging in their sophistry, philotrolls are among the most hypocritical and aggravating of trollkind.

The Affected Profundity Troll. A mutant subspecies of Sophist Trolls, Affected Profundity Trolls post endless pages of pretentious drivel that is intended to appear wise, but which generally makes little sense (if any). Affected Profundity Trolls enjoy asking themselves questions, sometimes answering them and sometimes leaving them hanging, for they believe this looks intelligent and lends an aura of mystery to their incoherent ramblings. Affected Profundity Trolls aspire to become Sophist Trolls, but lack the intelligence necessary to make the leap.

The Don King Troll. Related to Affected Profundity Trolls, Don King Trolls spout gibberish in the hope that they'll either bore or confuse to death those with whom they disagree. The average Don King Troll is "a pursuitist who gromulates his adversarial computerists with height defining formulations to the disinterestingest adjunct."

The Artistic Troll. A higher species of Classic Troll, Artistic Trolls are intelligent individuals who understand the subtle art of trolling, and who do what they do specifically to make others look foolish. Often employing the techniques of Deceptive Trolls, Artistics will string forumites along until some point in time designated by their own desires, at which point they will reveal the ploy, admit that it was a ploy, and laugh at everyone for being stupid enough to fall for it. Artistic Trolls delight in sowing discord, but do it in a highly developed and fully aware manner. They do not care if they are despised, and do not seek the approval of forum participants. Chaos is their only goal, and preferably chaos with a humorous bent to it. Without a doubt, this is the most dangerous species.

The Bitter Troll. Bitter Trolls are a curious cross-species. They can be trolls of any breed in their larval stages, but become Bitters after their previous activities are seen for what they were. What sets these trolls apart from other classifications is their behavior after they have been spotted and labeled as trolls. Angry, frustrated, and resentful about being "outed," the Bitter Troll will wage a campaign of indignant complaints intended to focus attention away from the troll and on whomever is responsible for identifying the creature. Often, a troll mutates into a Bitter just prior to becoming a Vulgar.

The Bustr. Bustrs are obsessive Bitters by whom you could practically set your watch. A Bustr never forgets, never forgives, and holds a grudge until the day it dies. Also a variant of Agenda trolls, Bustrs typically move from forum to forum complaining about the objects of their ire, often cutting and pasting age-old diatribes that have little meaning to most of their audiences. Most Bustrs are relatively incoherent, though a few of the more lucid ones are potentially dangerous stalkers.

The Mutt. Alternatively known as Dogs or Yapping Dogs. Mutts are pack animals characterized by their loud barking – vociferous, repetitive, usually ignorant and irrational criticism of anything and anyone they do not like. Mutts frequently become obsessed with a few or even a single poster with whom they disagree, often for purely personal reasons. Like a dog gnawing at a bone, the Mutt will attack the object of its ire over and over again, making a fool of itself in the eyes of those who understand such childish behavior for what it is. Often one Mutt in a group of Yapping Dogs will act as the alpha of the pack, while the others chime in to voice their mindless (but loud) support for their leader's opinions.

The Holy Misroller (HM). Holy Misrollers are those online forum participants who give Christians (or other religious adherents) a bad name. The HM believes himself or herself to be a Christian (etc.) and will generally tell anyone who'll listen about his or her faith in God and in Jesus. At the same time, however, the HM will display decidedly un-Christian behavior, frequently making an *** out of him- or herself. The HM is often characterized by a great deal of anger and hostility. The breed tends to lash out at anyone and anything not in keeping with its incorrectly narrow worldview. The saddest part about HMs is that they do not truly understand Christianity at all.

The Marketing Genius. A Marketing Genius is absolutely convinced that you are profiting from your participation in an Internet forum. If you have a link or a graphic block in you signature, the Marketing Genius just knows that this is your subtle attempt to assert your hypnotic powers on other bulletin board participants, luring them with the siren song of your complex and inscrutable advertising of your site. It does not matter to the Marketing Genius that forum members have been placing links and pictures in their signatures since the ability to do so was first created. Having never created anything of value themselves, Marketing Geniuses have only their bitter envy and their firm belief that you are a Dot Com Billionaire to motivate and occupy them.

The Honorable Nitwit. Honorable Nitwits absolutely love to speak about honor. This breed invokes the concepts of honor, integrity, humility, and other traits straight from the Boy Scout Oath more often than a Klingon warrior on anti-depressants. Honorable nitwits are convinced that everyone around them suffers from a lack of honor – an idea they thoroughly fail to understand in attempting to use its lack to smear others.

The Old Warrior. The Old Warrior has been there and done that. He has little time to spare for those who have not been there and done that. The Old Warrior has been there and done that to such an extent, in fact, that he is always right. Anyone who disagrees with him, therefore, is wrong by definition and should shut the hell up. Old Warriors place a very high premium on one's credentials relevant to the subject matter discussed – failing to understand the logical fallacy of appeals to authority.

The Forum Cultist. Forum cultists are extremely proud of the incredible Internet communities to which they belong. They pride themselves on the exclusivity of those communities and actually believe that "it can't happen to them" – "it," of course, being their own banishment. Forum cultists place a very high premium on groupthink and generally react to differing opinions with outrage, banning all who dare to speak them.
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  #105  
Old January 26th, 2009, 07:59 AM

Agema Agema is offline
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Default Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachinegunJoeTurbo
The English did it because of cost reasons and got stuck so to speak which is a recurrent problem with the country throughout it's history similar to how they were slow to change from hand cutting coal to machine cut which hampered their industry
Er, do you have a problem with the English or British?

Firstly, you seem determined to not just deny any credit to them for use of the longbow, but to make out they were cheap, and only won battles because the French were incompetent.

Now you're making bizarre accusations that they repeatedly get "stuck" using old and inefficient technologies and practices. On what grounds would you argue they were any worse than any other race nation? How do you explain they were and still are near the front of technological advancement since about 1700?

* * *

I know Wikipedia is not the most reliable source of information but...

Quote:
Worldwide the average power for bows of all designs is about 220 newtons (50 pounds) at 70 cm (28 inches) of draw which is suitable for most hunting applications. Bows for warfare tend to be much more powerful, with the most powerful bows being the English longbow and the African elephant bow, both of which topped the 900 N (200-pound) at 80 cm (32 inches) mark.
This is the point. It's not that longbows are worldwide and strong bows are worldwide. It that bows - of any sort - with draw weights of an English longbow were very rare as battlefield weapons. Getting thousands of men who can pull a 220N bow effectively is a very different matter from getting thousands who can pull an 600-900N bow.

I maintain that extra weight a) made the bows much more effective and b) that it required the sort of training the English king compelled on his subjects. Which makes the English longbow not just your average bow fired by your average archer.
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  #106  
Old January 26th, 2009, 09:45 AM
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Humakty Humakty is offline
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Default Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows

I must say the most powerfull bow in history is not the english (wales in fact) longbow, but the indian one. It was much less precise however, as it was used by an archer lying on his back.

As a french, I must say our noble knights ultimately understood that they needed not to expose themselves to ennemy fire too much, and finaly got rid of the many english tourists that weren't willing to go back to their ill-climated homeland, even after the legal expiration of their visas.
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  #107  
Old January 26th, 2009, 12:36 PM

Agema Agema is offline
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Default Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows

Hey, by percentage battles won of those fought, since the fall of the Roman Empire the French have the most successful military in Europe. A few blips against longbow-wielding English are neither here nor there.
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  #108  
Old January 26th, 2009, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows

That was Quite Interesting
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  #109  
Old January 26th, 2009, 01:13 PM

Agema Agema is offline
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Default Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows

You find out all sorts of great things watching TV.

The right TV programs, anyway.
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  #110  
Old January 26th, 2009, 02:33 PM
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Default Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows

I didn't knew that, anyway during the last century we've been trying hard to lower those stats, they don't fit with our natural sense of Modesty.
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