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  #91  
Old February 26th, 2012, 08:12 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Polish OOB 5.5

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283 Formoza Navy SF - wz.2003 LMG wasn't commissioned - it was to be a Polish equivalent of Minimi. In fact, redundant unit because of 282. Wz.2003 LMG might be replaced in weapons file with Minimi Para, used by special forces, but I don't know if it makes sense, considering its narrow usage. In that case, in other units wz.2003 LMG should be replaced with 16 UKM-2000 LMG
I didn't notice there was already #158 Minimi in weapons - it should replace wz.2003 in this unit (possibly wz.2003 would be replaced with Negev in weapons file, but the future will show).

Quote:
562 SA-4 Ganef - was to be withdrawn in 6/111 (now 12/120) [Raport 05/2011]. Proper name is 2K11 Krug
Modernized Krug was introduced around 2001 (now 1/105) [source: Raport 10/2000]

Quote:
564, 569 SA-3 Neva SC - should be S-125 Newa-SC (Polish modernization)
564, 569 SA-3 Neva SC - first serial systems were delivered in 1999 (now 1/92) [source: Raport 7/1999]. Unit 564 should be IMO removed - Newa SC had modified missiles and radar from the beginning.

However, weapon #134 SA3 Neva SC SAM needs altering. It should be improved comparing with missile SA-3 (#136), while it is made worse in the game (smaller warhead, penetration 12 vs 60, longer min range, shorter range). In fact, missiles remained the same, but should have improved accuracy due to replacing lamp computers with modern units in control stations (less prone to jamming).

563 SA-6 Gainful - proper name 2K12 Kub. Modernized Kub was introduced in mid-1999 (now: 1/105) [Raport 10/1999]

Michal
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  #92  
Old February 26th, 2012, 08:30 PM

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Default Re: Polish OOB 5.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH View Post
The SPIKE-LR version does appear to be stalled and does carry a standard ring mounted 12.7mm but the Polish source below also indicates it carries "ppk two sections of SPIKE-LR on board" (MANPADS?). Majority of 12.7mm systems appear to be ROWS as ELBIT won a huge contract to supply them in particular to the M1 versions from the source below after ref one.
Spike sections are indeed transported inside Rosomak-S variant - I didn't mention this one, because it may be covered by APC variants (with 12.7mm or AGL). There is however no firm information, if Spike-carrying vehicles are armed at all...

Speaking of Elbit, you mean unmanned turrets 12.7mm?... In 2005 Rafael RCWS-127 Mini Samson wond a tender, but it was cancelled. Another tender was won in 2006 by OTO Mellera Hitrole, but it was cancelled as well. In 2007, the Polish Army decided to quit from unmanned turrets - and AFAIK this is actual state.

Michal
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  #93  
Old February 26th, 2012, 08:55 PM

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Default Re: Polish OOB 5.5

570 BRDM-2M96i - armament should be #80 14.5mm TMG, not 12.7. I'm afraid this vehicle should have no game-relevant distinctions from BRDM-2 (cut-off side doors, newer engine, same armament and poor vision devices, no SD) - maybe only bigger survivability due to better firefighting system.

571 BRDM-2B Zbik B - precisely BRDM-2M97B Zbik or just BRDM-2 Zbik-B (not BRDM-2B) - introduced around 9/1998 (now 1/103). Armament is 12.7mm WKM-B TMG, not AAMG. It's not clear, if serial vehicles use Fagot ATGM - there should be also second variant available, without Fagot (in both classes: Scout veh. and Gun APC). Vision should be 30 (20). Speed is 100 km/h. Its SD are in fact VIRSS, with automatic laser warning Obra system [Raport 8/1999]

I suggest to create 12.7mm WKM-B TMG in a place of #67 DShK CMG - not existing as CMG in Poland, used only by unit 443 MT-LBu 1W15+, which shouldn't use such weapon, especially from 2000 (I'll deal closer with MTLBu's in next season). As for now, unit 443 could use NSVT AAMG rather.

575 BRDM-2M97 - to be removed - Factoria ATGM is not used in Poland. Or to be changed to variant with no ATGM. Proper pic is 45419 or 29282, other comments as above.

576 BRDM-2B Zbik B - as #571 (different class)

577 BRDM-2 Zbik-A - precisely BRDM-2M97A Zbik or BRDM-2 Zbik-A. AFAIK, there still exist only 1 vehicle, although it was commissioned... It could be, with radio 3. Correct icon is 2319, carry=104, SD 2 are VIRSS.

578 BRDM-2 Szakal - better picture is 29281 (it has old turret - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...097_Szakal.JPG ) Precisely, it's BRDM-2M96ik model. It should have 12.7mm WKM-B TMG (not AAMG). No SD.

579 BRDM-2 Szakal+ - only a demonstrator with bar armour, abandoned - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._Szakal%2B.JPG

We'll be finishing soon... I'm tired as well

Regards
Michal
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  #94  
Old February 26th, 2012, 09:26 PM
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Default Re: Polish OOB 5.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post


We'll be finishing soon...

I sincerely hope so.......

Don
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  #95  
Old February 26th, 2012, 09:35 PM
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Fallout Re: Polish OOB 5.5

Rosomak does have the OTO MARELA HITFIST turret. Also looks like the SPIKE-LR as well though it seems in very limited numbers.
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SI...ILES/6/606.pdf
http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...ish-units.html
http://www.bumar.com/en/news/2011/02...-finmeccanica/


As far as I can tell the ELBIT contract did go through for the 12.7mm ROTS.

Regards,
Pat
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  #96  
Old February 26th, 2012, 10:10 PM
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Fallout Re: Polish OOB 5.5

Alright found this site that seems to tie up all the loose ends out there again from POLAND. SPIKE-LR not until maybe 2013 or Rafeal ATGW. Looks like Elbit deal did fall through so yes 12.7mm or 40mm AGL on ring mounted turrets.
Never be afraid to say your mistaken out here.
Seems to be the most through on Polish ROSOMAK versions.
http://gdziewojsko.wordpress.com/woz...e/kto-rosomak/
You will have to use your GOOGLE or other translator-sorry-thought it might save the translated version I saved.



Regards,
Pat
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  #97  
Old February 27th, 2012, 03:52 PM

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Default Re: Polish OOB 5.5

The rest

620 57mm S-60M AAG - improved fire control system Umbrella for S-60 gun batteries was introduced in 1999 (now 1/106) [Raport 6/98, 7/99] (in fact, FCS is fitted in a special vehicle, not individual guns, which are linked). It has also laser RF. Radio should be 90. Rifle should be 029 AKM

623 12.7 NSWT AAMG - unit's name should be NSW (NSWT is tank version). Weapon should be accordingly 017 NSVT, not WKM-B

624 25mm AA-Gun - J.Kajetanowicz's book on Polish Army 1945-60 doesn't mention 25mm AA gun among used weapons - basic was 37mm (25mm was used during the war).

630 Para Support - to be removed. C.Gustav wasn't used by airmobile units by 2000-2001 (and Onyks SMG is wrong). Formation 286 needs date change to 1/100

637 Metis Para ATGM - Onyks rifle should be changed to 007 wz.88

638 Metis Para ATGM - probably used until 120 (115)

652 IS-3 - only 2 were used, and not in combat units. At least they should have radio code 3. Ammo should be 14 HE, 14 AP.

657 IS-85 - aren't mentioned in sources as used in Poland after the war. Possibly used in training units only, if at all. To be removed IMO.

658 IS-IIm1944(cs) - name should be just IS-2 (cs). Heat ammo should be changed to AP (there was no Heat)

659 IS-IIm1944 - it's supposed to be later variant of IS-2 with heat ammo, but such ammo wasn't used. Thus this seems redundant because of unit 414.
Maybe one of them should have anti-tank ammo load (say 8/20, like original unit 414 - although such load doesn't seem to be used in practice), and the other - 14/14 (both used from 1946 then).
Or it could be obsolete tank in 1961- around 1964

683 Irbis - not used, proposal only. To keep formation unchanged, I suggest to extend 843 BTR-60PB to 120.

697 PZL-104 Wilga - used in the air force from 1972 (1/66) (rather not in AOP role though)

699 BAW (class: scout vehicle) - hard to say, what it should be. Probably GAZ-46 MAW (BAW was big Zil-485) (there was in fact once a picture of MAW incorrectly attributed as BAW in Polish military press from the 80s, when precise names were still treated much as a secret).
Picture probably shows some Russian prototype, bigger than MAW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAZ_46 . Anyway, MAW was used from mid 1950s until no later, than end of 1970s (now:1/69 - 12/110). It carried only 1+5 persons, had no fixed armament and had max speed of 95 km/h (according to Russian Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie)

To be added: real BAW - Zil-485 from #185 in a Russian OOB, but correct picture is 29202, Lift Capacity should be 125 (it had a rear ramp), speed was 65 km/h and 10 km/h on water. It was used from late 1950s until end of 1970s.

704 SU-76M - ammo load should be 31 HE, 19 AP, 10 according to J. Kajetanowicz. Maybe SMG could be added for self-defence? (there were carried one or two).

705 SU-85m - name should be just SU-85. It had no AAMG. Ammo should be 20 HE, 28 AP (probably including some Sabot - maybe 8?). No Heat were used. It has too much rounds in the game - should be 48 (56). Radio code should be 0 (1) - common vehicles. Used until 1961 at least (12/59)

706 PTS-M - no armour, speed on land only 42 km/h, on water only 10 [Russian Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2001].

707, 708 K61 - no armour, speed on land only 36 km/h, on water only 10 [source as above].

709 JSU-122 - correct name is ISU-122. According to all Russian sources, ammunition was only 30 (15 AP at best) - now 40 (J. Kajetanowicz's book alone quotes 36.)
Weapon #188 could be changed to identical #94 - it's the only user of 188, which is otherwise redundant (in fact, basic ISU-122 gun should be named A-19S, but it had the same performance, as D-25T, only lower ROF due to other breech design, and such naming issue might be omitted).
Better picture (also of Polish vehicle) seems 89.

710 JSU-122s - correct name is ISU-122S. Ammunition - as above. Both units should differ in ROF only - now they have 5, while ISU-122 in Russian OOB has 6, so ISU-122S should have 6
(in fact, basic ISU-122 might have even less - practical to 2.5 RPM, but it would demand checking all ISU-122 users in the game, if they have ISU-122, or ISU-122S).

723 Tarpan Rys - I'm not sure if went behind prototype stage (I'll check in the future), but it had DShK AAMG instead of WKM-B

There should be added similar vehicle Skorpion 3 - same data, used from 11/04 in Iraq, armed with #100 7.62mm PKT AAMG, very lightly armoured in some parts (0/1/0/0/1/1/0 ?)
photos: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ker-Skorpion-3

725 MB 290 GD - used as unarmed utility vehicle only, not armed scout vehicle. Years ago there was armed prototype Jeż presented, but it wasn't developed. Could be changed to utility vehicle or replaced with mentioned Skorpion 3.

735 AGL Nest - possible use (with Mk19 GL) only from late 2007 (1/80) - as 097 unit.

746 Obluze Class - apart from the fact, that it was seagoing patrol craft, it seems, that somebody put 60mm OTO HVMS in weapons file in a place of twin 30 mm AK-230 AA gun, which should be correct armament for all ships. 60mm OTO HVMS is used only by prototype BWP-2000, thus it's useless.

749 MFP - it could transport medium tanks

851 Cougar HEV 6x6 - 4x4 are used, not 6x6 - from 11/09 (1/09) until some 114 (120 - they are only borrowed) [http://www.altair.com.pl/start-2199 ], armed with WKM-B AAMG?

Needs date change in formations.

There could be added another MRAPs:
- Maxx Pro Dash - from 3/11 - http://www.altair.com.pl/start-6049

- M-ATV Oshkosh - from mid-11? (such vehicle was destroyed by IED, killing 5 soldiers, in 12/11)

902 Earthen Bunker, 903 Concrete bunker - I have no idea what is MON-50 Mine. It has class 5 Light gun.

922 Star 944 Hiena - according to nTW 2/2005, plans of fitting trucks with armour were abandoned, and the Hiena, tested in Iraq, "will remain a single prototype".
Are we interested in ordinary trucks with armoured cabs? They were used from 2008.


That's all as for units.

Regards
Michal
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  #98  
Old February 27th, 2012, 04:31 PM

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Default Re: Polish OOB 5.5

Few misc comments on weapons and formations:

Weapons:

005 wz.89 Onyks SMG - short series was made, but it wasn't finally adopted. It could be replaced with PM-84P SMG (Uzi-like design, firing 9mm Para) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PM-84_Glauberyt
It can substitute for Onyks in all units, from which Onyks hasn't been removed (until they are reviewed next time)

006 wz/43/52 SMG - correct name would be wz.43/52 SMG. But it's better to rename it PPS wz.43 SMG - it would cover both standard folding stock wz.43 and wooden stock wz.43/52 (horribly clumsy looking weapon).

007 wz.88/89 Tantal - correct name is only wz.88 Tantal (I don't know hence "89") - maybe better "wz.88 Tantal AR"

053 7.62 SGMT AAMG - Soviet designation of AAMG variant was SGMB.

033 7.62 SG43 MMG - maybe "7.62mm SG43 MMG", in accordance with others?

149 AT-2 Falanga-M1- useless

Unit 124 Mi-24D should use ordinary #147 9M17 Falanga (like in Russian OOB) instead of this one.

150 AT-2 Falanga-M - useless

167 9M120 Ataka - certainly useless

198 1000lb bomb - should be renamed 500 kg Bomb

216 98mm M98 Mortar - according to Polish sources and MoD page, it has range 400-7000 m (8-140 - now 2-92)

234 9mm PM63 SMG - it has specifications of a short rifle (range 4), while it was small and inefficient 9mm Makarov SMG. Range should be 2 and kill 4 (like Czech Skorpion) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PM-63_RAK

241 76mm L51 obr36 - useless

Regards
Michal
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  #99  
Old February 27th, 2012, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: Polish OOB 5.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post

198 1000lb bomb - should be renamed 500 kg Bomb
NO Michal it should be changed to a 500kg bomb because in the game there is a difference in HEK between a 1000 pound bomb and a 500 kg bomb and that change was made a week or so back the first time you brought up the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post

053 7.62 SGMT AAMG - Soviet designation of AAMG variant was SGMB.
.......and that is the TENTH time this has been brought up un the last 3 months ( yep.... 9 times already in the "done" notes and now this time...10 total )

Now please......take a break and wait to see what the OOB in the patch looks like before commenting further.

Also.....I am well aware of the "useless" weapons, anyone who knows how to run the MOBHack database check utilities can find the unused weapons in the OOB. I can removed them or leave them alone, they have no affect on the game

Thank You


Don
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  #100  
Old February 27th, 2012, 06:07 PM

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Default Re: Polish OOB 5.5

Formations - just few.

012, 013 Heavy Tank Pl, Heavy Tank Co - heavy tank platoon had in fact only 2 tanks, company - 1 tank and 2 platoons (5 tanks).

014 SPG Platoon (3 SP-guns) -appeared from 1949. There should be also created:
- SPG Battery with 4 SP-guns (template unit 704 SU-76), in some 1946-1959
- SPG Battery with 5 SP-guns (template unit 705 SU-85), in some 1946-1955

085 Amphibian Pl - better name: Amphib APC Plt, to show their real role

252 Mec Bn Spt MRV - unit #207 Rosomak (IFV) should be replaced with #208 Rosomak (APC). In fact, each carries only 2 AT sections, not 3.

902-904 Gun Truck... - to be removed, with removal of Hiena.

That's all as for now.

Michal
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