War.... (Historical: 9/11 discussion thread)

[rdouglass]

quote:

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Originally posted by geoschmo:
...In fact we may find out that the reason the fourth plane crashed in penn. is because the passengers discovered via radio or cell phone what was going on and decided to rush the terrorists.

The people on board weren't sheep. They were scared. And they assumed the terrorists didn't want to die. Most people don't.

Geoschmo

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According to news reports this morning, a man on that 4th plane called his wife and told her he loved her and was going to die 'c ause him and a few other passengers were going to rush the terrorists. Also, same report said that the plane was suspected to be heading to Washington DC instead of Camp David as originally reported.

I agree also that the people on the other plane probably did not realize it was a suicide mission. Most (not all of course) hijacking you hear about ends with the plane landing at another airport in another country
and someone usually negotiates for SOMETHING.

Lastly, its very easy to play 'armchair quarterback' and unless you're actually there faced with the actual circumstances, its impossible to predict what you actually would do. I am by no means saying that everyone did everything they possibly could, I'm just saying its difficult to predict what one would do faced with impending death untill you're actually facing it.

Reguardless, this was a terrible event for the world, not just the U.S. Of course, the world is really rather small and not everyone is going to 'get along' with everyone else. I don't know the answers, but we have all seen the problems.......

[Stone Mill]

We are all shaken and disturbed by this. But the feeling of the day seems to be helpless.

Two fears:
1. A general association with Islam and terrorism by those less educated. A have heard remarks that here in the US: "we should beat down some towelheads at the gas station." Need I point out how ignorant this sounds? Is it not obvios that all Muslims are not terrorists?
If we nuke Middle Eastern nations, et al, do we weed out their US relatives and exterminate them as well?

2. Terrorists are not easily detected. I'm sure someone will pay the price for this attack but it may not be the parties responsible. Those of us who are so angry (that we want to vomit) cry for bloodshed, punishment and retribution. But we are the victims of too many Harrison Ford movies. In real life, these Groups are as crafty and intelligent as we are- and they go the extra step to dedicate and willingly give their life for their cause.

This is something unprecendented- not the act of a nation or reasonable leader we can declare war against- but the monstrous actions of a secret society. Our successful infiltration of these factions has been either poor or negligible. Our satelletites and survellience equipment master the topography, but these terrorists are masters of the underground.

The answer here is quite a bit more complicated.

[geoschmo]

I do not support attacks against Arab Americans in "retaliation" for what happened yesterday. Anybody supporting that would be as ignorant and evil as the people who perpetrated this act.

Not all Islamic people are terrorists. In fact no true follower of Islam could support the taking of an innocent life.

That being said I am sickened and outraged by the images of Palestinian people dancing and celebrating these attacks.

Regardless of American support for Israel, nobody has EVER seen footage of Americans dancing in the street when Israeli soldiers kill Palestinians. In fact I have never seen footage of Israeli citizens celebrating in the streets over the loss of Palestinian lives. What they usually do is feel sorrow over the tragic loss of life on both sides.

Don't try and tell me it's justified because of the actions of the Israelis or the Americans supporting them.

What kind of society can celebrate the horrendous acts of terrorism that took place yesterday?

What kind of sick person can take pleasure in the suffering of another person, even someone who is your enemy?

I don't understand. I never will.

Geoschmo

[Hotfoot]

Yesterday on my college campus, people were already giving Middle Eastern students dirty looks. It's sad, especially on a liberal arts campus like Sarah Lawrence.

Hopefully people here have come to their senses, and I wish people everywhere would. An eye for an eye just doesn't work anymore, it only leads into a downwards spiral.

As it stands now, however, from what I've heard (and this is not official or being talked about on the news, so take it with a grain of salt), over 2/3 of America's entire military is mobilized for action, the nation is at DEFCON 3, and the reason for skyrocketing oil and gas prices within the past 24 hours is due to it being requisitioned for military use.

Looks like the Chinese finally got us. We are living in interesting times indeed.

[Argh]

The Taliban(whose 'government' is the prime suspect, as they're harboring Osama Bin Ladin) are, in a very real sense, our monster. We created the Taliban as a fanatical nationalistic and religious group, to defeat the Soviets. We trained them. We armed them. And we turned a blind eye to their excesses.

We(and the retreating Soviets) left behind an arsenal that's totally out of proportion with the size of the country. And then we're surprised that these well-armed, battle-scarred religious fanatics have resisted all calls to moderate their ways? Please. . .

Our problem here is a fundamental one- we have a philosophical conflict with the radical Islamists, who :

1. Realize that liberal Western ways are infinately more fun than their way of life, and will steadily corrupt and disrupt their carefully-constructed societies.

2. Have seen what happens to other traditional societies when Western ideas begin to dismantle the traditional social order- chaos, disorder, and ultimately the removal of non-progressive leadership ensue, and that's not something that any authoritarian appreciates. Note China, North Korea, and Vietnam's longstanding war against Western ideas. China has struck a delicate balance between the iron fist and open arms, but they often fire up their hatred machinery in order to keep themselves firmly in control of national politics. For that matter, so does our government.

3. Noticed that most societies seem to need to have an enemy. We're the easiest choice for these sorts of Groups- the democratic socialists of Europe, while historically responsible for most of the problems of this area of the world, aren't the power-that-is. That, and Europe doesn't sell Isreal a lot of weaponry.

4. Isreal's continued existence is a fearful reminder that all things are transient. If I were a Saudi prince, I'd look at Isreal's displaced Palestinian Arabs and say, "but for the grace of Allah go I".

Anyhow, I'm hardly a cowardly racist- I'm part Iroquois, German and Swedish, so I look vaguely Jewish/Arabic, I talk like a native of my state, and I have friends from all over the world. And I don't advocate the eradication of a people- that would put me on a par with Nazis and other thugs.

At the same time, I don't think that we're going to see an end to these sorts of attacks until we have dismantled the nations responsible for their funding, training, and support. I hate jingoistic rhetoric, but unlike some who have responded to the events here, I don't think that we should accept this as just one of the costs of being a superpower. In short, if the radicals of the world want a war, we should bring it to them, wherever governments with foolish ideas about their best interests accept them.

[Solar]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:

Excuse me if this is rude, but biological warfare and such is Tom Clancy "If" items.

Originally posted by Puke:
speaking of tom clancy, cnn is linking to some interview with him and citing him as an authority on terrorist's orginizational logistics. no wonder people condenm western culture.

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Yesterday as I stared in shock at my television screen, something about the whole scenario seemed eerily familiar. Last night I finally remembered what it was.

In 1996 I read a book by Tom Clancy called Executive Orders. In the book, terrorists crash a 747 into the capitol building, killing almost everyone inside. It's almost spooky re-reading the scenes of devastation in light of what's happened.

I have to say that I, too, am stunned that we didn't see this coming. If Tom Clancy, a novel writer, could predict an airliner being used as a terrorist weapon, why the hell is American Intelligence scratching their collective heads saying "Gee...I dunno. We never really thought about this kinda thing."

A couple of other warning signs that went unheeded:
Remember the small plane that managed to crash into the Clinton white house?

Even the Columbine shooters wrote about stealing/hijacking a plane and crashing it into Washington.

I don't mean to be critical. I'm just saddened that it took such a tragic loss of life to get the US to wake up.

Solar

[This message has been edited by Solar (edited 12 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Solar (edited 12 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Solar (edited 12 September 2001).]

[dmm]

I can't help but rebut some comments posted here. Here goes:
1) Israel's military occupation of the West Bank began after they defeated a bunch of enemies, INCLUDING THE PALESTINIANS, who tried to push them into the sea. Question for all you SEIV players: What do you do with a defeated enemy? Give him all his planets back, and no apology necessary?
2) This occupation has not been brutal, as alleged on this forum. In fact, the West Bank has seen unprecedented prosperity over the Last 34 years. The West Bank Palestinians are much wealthier than the Syrian or Jordanian Palestinians. And it wouldn't have gone on for 34 years if the PLO and other Palestinian Groups had not made it their mission to destroy Israel.
3) To compare the "intifada" casualties to the recent US deaths is pure BS. First, most of the intifada deaths either occurred during a riot or were assassinations of known terrorists (or harborers of terrorists). Innocent civilian deaths, although certainly tragic, have been a small minority. Second, the numbers of intifada deaths, innocent or otherwise, do not approach 30,000, not even after 34 years of supposedly brutal military occupation.
4) To compare the economic casualties of the intifada to the recent US destruction is pure BS. The whole West Bank isn't worth one World Trade Center tower.
5) To say that Islam is really a nice, sweet religion is pure BS. Maybe this is true of most Muslims in the West, but it certainly isn't true worldwide. Fact: there is not one Muslim country in the whole world that has real freedom of religion. Even in relatively progressive Muslim countries like Egypt or Saudi Arabia, Muslims who convert to other religions are routinely murdered and the government does nothing. Maybe the majority of Muslims in those countries don't condone that behavior, but they don't stop it either. Their reaction is never more than "tsk tsk" and a slap on the wrist. The Islamics worldwide who hate America don't hate us because of our wealth or our power -- they hate us for the same reason that they hate the Israelis: because we are not Muslims, plain and simple!

[BloodyRanger]

Aside from trying to "hunt down" the perpetrators of this dispicable act, we should be asking ourselves "How do we prevent this in the future?" I am personally shocked that the airspace around the Pentagon is not more tightly regulated. If there weren't SAM sites around the Capital, there should be soon. Of course, being ordered to shoot down a plane full of US Citizens would be a trying experience to say the least.

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Solar:
[BI have to say that I, too, am stunned that we didn't see this coming. If Tom Clancy, a novel writer, could predict an airliner being used as a terrorist weapon, why the hell is American Intelligence scratching their collective heads saying "Gee...I dunno. We never really thought about this kinda thing."[/b]

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You are way off the mark here. Of course our intelligence operations thought about this sort of thing happening. But thinking about it and preventing it are too different things.

In the days and weeks to come we are going to hear tons of reports of information that someone should have been able to see this coming. Some of this will be rumor, but some of it will be true. But none of it changes the fact that it's very hard to infiltrate an organization such as this and discover their plans. And nearly inpossible to stop them once they have been put into motion.

How do you infiltrate an orginization who's members have dedicated their lives to. Not only that they are willing to die, but that their goal is to die in the performance of their mission?

And if you decide that's too hard, how do you stop an operation like this once it's started?

Strip searches at airports?
Armed guards on every airplane?
Fighter escorts for every airplane flying over populated areas, with orders to fire upon a fully loaded plane with innocent passengers if they deviate one iota from there prescribed flight plan?

We could move the airports 100 miles from any major city I guess.

The only way to stop things is to punish those responsible so that they they cannot do such things again.

If Bin Laden turns out to be responsible as most early indications point too, then the way we could have prevented this was to punish him for his terrorist activites over the Last 10+ years.

At the very least hounding him and pressuring other governments to not allow him sanctuary would have kept him on the run and unable to plan and execute this acts.

Geoschmo

[Alpha Kodiak]

quote:

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Originally posted by geoschmo:
<snip>
The only way to stop things is to punish those responsible so that they they cannot do such things again.

If Bin Laden turns out to be responsible as most early indications point too, then the way we could have prevented this was to punish him for his terrorist activites over the Last 10+ years.

At the very least hounding him and pressuring other governments to not allow him sanctuary would have kept him on the run and unable to plan and execute this acts.

<snip>

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I'm with Geo on this one. We need to find out who did this and make very sure that they (and anyone else who is like minded) find out that attacking Americans is a BAD thing, and doing so carries with it BAD consequences.

For those who don't like Americans claiming high moral ground, think about this: somebody just killed thousands, or more probably, tens of thousands of people for no reason other than to kill and cause terror. You will have to excuse us for taking the high moral ground in going after them.