The Bogarus Problem

[Tifone]

Excuse the question of a poor n00b.

Doesn't a H3 priest destroy an assassin? I mean, he is already set to smite on turn 1 no? And surely he isn't on the front line? One turn, possibly two for the assassin before landing the killin blow, shouldn't he already be smited and gone?

For the main theme, I don't understand why wouldn't both the ways be viable - I think we're used to see nations played in 2 or even more different ways I think. Surely the SC provides more "moral deterrent" then the smiters - but with DrPraetorious' build and scales, for example, and K's strategy, I think you would expand almost as faster but not trashing your mid-to-late game's national advantage of a strong research with a Drain-2...

[Agema]

Smite has a magic resistance check, the assassin may survive. Besides, few people will make an assassin early on when there are more important things to make, and they won't be preferentially aiming for H3 priests, I suspect.

* * *

I think people are overlooking what K originally stated. He wasn't suggesting Bogarus would be rushproof without an awake SC pretender. I think he was suggesting partly he'd take the chance of non-rushing neighbours for an advanced mid to late game. I'd imagine the likes of mammoth-wielding Caelum or dual-bless Mictlan would fancy rushing Bogarus whether or not they had an SC.

To this end, Bogarus could avoid sloth scales (making the points back and more on a cheaper pretender and delayed arrival) and build stronger troops instead.

[chrispedersen]

Sloth scales aren't going to make a beans worth of difference. A pile of crap is still crap.

[Tifone]

But armored crap is more difficult to squash ^_^

[JimMorrison]

Except with Sloth 3 you won't be able to recruit anything but Voi in any numbers. In that case, you are better off with indie troops - but wait, you won't get any significant number of indies with Sloth 3 either.

Tell you one thing, if I'm looking for a rush target, a Sloth 3 Bogarus with a PoDis much higher on the list (the technical term is "top") than a Prod 3 Bogarus who can actually field something other than mages and his PoD.

Of course, if your argument is that everyone who takes a PoD is an amazing player who will raid their assailant to death, and everyone who goes max scales is a n00b who will run their cavalry under your elephants..... then you win the debate, hooray for you.

[Zenzei]

While I'm on the awake SC camp, I certainly agree with Jim and K that good scales are also necessary for Bogarus. Taking sloth would certainly lead into disaster, imo, because then one would really have nothing to stop an invasion and single pretender now matter how though won't do here.

I've also wondered why do people tend to ignore Bogarus' national troops. Sure, the voi are trash but the peshti spearmen and various cavalry look rather good to me.

[Dedas]

I have you ever considered using the production scale to build lots and lots of "crap" and then back it up with mages who then cast boosters on the crap and then bombard the enemy from safety (behind the crap)?

[JimMorrison]

Because a peak protection of 13 is considered rather pathetic in LA.

But the Voi are horrendous. The other troops, while not impressive, have their strengths that can be leveraged. I have no idea what these guys do with their small Voi armies when their opponent has a PoD and can route their military in the first round of combat.....

But, different playstyles. I'd have completely abandoned this fracas, if I didn't think most of the "awake SC is absolutely necessary for Bogarus" camp were being totally ridiculous about their denouncement of other ways to take it. I never said an awake SC won't cut it. All I ever said was that you give up so much, and create enough new weaknesses, that it is not the clear cut and obvious choice that some people make it out to be.

Call me "inexperienced" all you want, winning with LA Ermor doesn't make you an expert on Bogarus. Only winning with Bogarus can do that. And not even, but it gets you closer to that title anyways.

[Dedas]

Morale is an issue I grant you that but you do have access to fanaticism by making an Eparch prophet. It also seems kind of thematic as well taking him along in a great army praying for the peasantry.

You should also only fight in positive dominion granting your peasants at least 9 in morale, add fanaticism and sermon to that and you have at least 11. Oh and your horse commanders also carry standards.

[JimMorrison]

Yes but you can't afford horses (resource-wise). And they're really hard to keep grouped with infantry, they're much better with the other horse archers who are also ranged, and also mounted with the same speed.

Fanatacism can surely help with the morale a bit, but Voi will still take tremendous losses against just about anything, including LA indies. I mean, I don't even buy that quality of troops for expansion in EA anymore, the attrition is just too costly and cumbersome.

I mean it's great if the PoD is taking a province a turn - if he can consistently find provinces that he can take. However, with Sloth3 and a Voi army, you're going to have a really tough time keeping up with expansion using your troops. It takes a couple of extra turns to rev up a solid force of horse archers, but they can take most indies with very few losses once they hit critical mass, so you are building up the next force, rather than running on a "Voi reinforcement" treadmill.

To look at it another way, if your PoD takes 10 (starts in month 2, and you wait until turn 2 to attack) provinces in the first year, and your army takes 6 provinces, then you aren't much better off than the player whose main army takes 9 provinces in that first year, and then sends another force out 3 turns later which takes 6 as well. Also if he's affording a decent squad of troops every 3 turns, and is positioned well, he might even be beating your expansion rate with the PoD - but we won't go there because you could suppose that your 8 prot, 8 morale Voi didn't die in droves.

My point is just that more often than not, no matter which direction you take it, Bogarus' expansion will tend to be mediocre. But it'll be mediocre with their best troops alone, or with an awake SC and a steaming pile of Voi.