Recruitable Unit Rebalance Version 7.51 Released.

[Huzurdaddi]

Scott Hebert said:
BF Ulm? Mass Ranger annihilation works well, so I hear.

Illuminated Ones, as written, are rather disappointing. Granted, they ARE spies, and they should pay for it, but it could work out better. For me, changing Illuminated Ones/Members of the Second Tier from Astral Primary to Blood Primary would be a useful thing to do.

Illuminated One: B
Member of the Second Tier: SBB

Anyway, just a thought.

I have to second that. The change would be pretty thematic for BF and would make it into a powerhouse.

[quantum_mechani]

I don't think BF Ulm needs any kind of boost (I would put them in the top ten nations/themes), but a thematic change might be fun. Such as giving the member of the second tier the assassin ability and raising his price.

[Scott Hebert]

My main issues with BF Ulm, from a 'fun' standpoint, are:

1. Bloodhunting Micromanagement (no fun)
2. Pretender 'must' be able to cast Sanguine Heritage
3. Illuminated Ones are pointless (Fortunetellers do everything they do and more)
4. Scales are bad (Death and Misfortune are things you don't want with a Blood nation)
5. Rather random Bloodhunters (I'm not paying 160g for a 1-blood hunter)

As an aside, Zen's mod making the Fountain produce Blood Slaves every turn is REALLY GOOD for BF Ulm.

[quantum_mechani]

Scott Hebert said:

1. Bloodhunting Micromanagement (no fun)
2. Pretender 'must' be able to cast Sanguine Heritage
3. Illuminated Ones are pointless (Fortunetellers do everything they do and more)
4. Scales are bad (Death and Misfortune are things you don't want with a Blood nation)
5. Rather random Bloodhunters (I'm not paying 160g for a 1-blood hunter)

The Illuminated ones are not pointless. They can be used as spies when needed, and are not capital only. Yes, it is a good idea to have 3B3D on your pretender when playing BF, much like taking an non recuperating/immoral pretender with Arco is a good idea. Blood micro is a problem with all blood nations (and nations in general in the late game). The scales and expensive hunters just mean it needs to be played in a different way than most blood nations

[The_Tauren13]

BF Ulm is weak: No elemental magic, a national spell that cant even be cast by national mages, starting death gem income but no death mages, no good artilery mages, no good ritual mages, pathetic blood hunters, etc. The list goes on and on. However, it is very fun to play, which, by my standards, makes it better than Pythium

[Huzurdaddi]

quantum_mechani said:
(I would put them in the top ten nations/themes)

Hmm sounds like you are changing your tune from earlier:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...=&fpart=1&vc=1

Perhaps you are simply conservative and reactionary to all changes and thus make unsubstantiated claims?

Ulm in general is pretty cruddy. BF is better ( maybe ) than base Ulm since it's a blood nation and blood nations rule however it's the worst of all of the blood nations. It hard to blood start your blood economy with BF since your recruitable blood hunters are the worst of all of the blood nations.

The change to SBB and B would be really good for BF and maybe *really* make them one of the top 10.

[Graeme Dice]

Scott Hebert said:
4. Scales are bad (Death and Misfortune are things you don't want with a Blood nation)

Misfortune doesn't impact BF Ulm very much once you have enough fortune tellers.

5. Rather random Bloodhunters (I'm not paying 160g for a 1-blood hunter)

Well, the difference in cost between these and warlock apprentices is about 5 blood slaves. It's in the very early game where their weakness is most noticeable.

One major weakness is that while vampire counts can make nice thugs, BF ulm doesn't have the low-level elemental mages (especially earth) that are needed for this to work. If you gave sanguine heritage to default or IF Ulm, you'd have quite a monster on your hands in very short notice.

[quantum_mechani]

Huzurdaddi said:

Hmm sounds like you are changing your tune from earlier:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...=&fpart=1&vc=1

Perhaps you are simply conservative and reactionary to all changes and thus make unsubstantiated claims?

I was not counting themes in that list, so I was rating Ulm as an average of it's themes. And I would appreciate it if we can keep the discussion civil.

[Ironhawk]

I don't agree with comments that cavalry are too cheap now. With cherry's mod I might actually consider building light or medium cav instead of ultraHeavy cav-or-nothing.

And as for suggestions to remove the precision bonus that was given to light cav: I see why people want that, from a realistic standpoint. But light cav needs to be good at *something* and they are poor melee units, so they have just got to be able to shoot.

Really I think the issue with Light Cav is that the dom2 tactical system doesnt support thier use. They seem designed for the Fire and Flee tactic but as we all know that breaks up your squads just like a rout, making it useless. If there was a legitimte Fire and Retreat tactic or possibly a Skirmish option (go and meleee for a few rounds, maybe hope to kill a leader or something? and then retreat) then light cav would suddenly spring into usefulness.

You know... just musing about light cav again... maybe we should just take away the bows all together since there arent any tactical options in dom2 to make use of it. What if, instead, we were to give them like +1 defence and a set of javelins. Kind of like REALLY watered-down Van. That way they could rush in fast, get off a couple of quality shots, and not get totally massacared by the counterattack?

[TheSelfishGene]

quantum_mechani said:

The Illuminated ones are not pointless. They can be used as spies when needed, and are not capital only. Yes, it is a good idea to have 3B3D on your pretender when playing BF, much like taking an non recuperating/immoral pretender with Arco is a good idea. Blood micro is a problem with all blood nations (and nations in general in the late game). The scales and expensive hunters just mean it needs to be played in a different way than most blood nations

... Which is why i wanted them to cause a slight amount of bad luck in the province they are in. The game doesn't really have the kind of robust "cloak and dagger" mechanics that the Illuminated One is supposed to effect upon the hapless empires around them.

Strictly speaking, BF Ulm is average; its weak if played as a 'standard' nation, just picking any old pretender, but decent as a vehicle for the VQ. I don't doubt that for some, that is enough. For myself, Death/Blood economies suck and i hate having only about 2 pretenders to realistically choose from. And the Illuminated One is priced correctly for his abilities, which is fair enough. But i'd rather see a more expensive, more capable I.O. that i could do something more useful with than cause unrest or cast the occasional scry, or have those abilities be more focused and complementary to BF Ulm.