Poll: How much will the new bless effects affect your pretender design?

[Pocus]

I like this idea of having auto search at your level minus xxx.

As much as I have tried, I have not found that investing 200 design points to get 9 or 10 in a magic scale was a good bet. Perhaps the demo limitations bias my results, perhaps not.

A pro argument for high magic levels : the scales dont give much now, far less than in doms I. We have perhaps the bad habit to value them too much. What is worth 120 design points now? (for growth +3, a 30.000 pop province, it is a meager +180 pop a turn, and +6% income IIRC). Perhaps it is worth to invest them in a high magic level.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Nerfix:

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Originally posted by Pocus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nerfix:
You could have found it at Dom X...
BTW, if somebody knows the numerical values of the Lesser Fear/Fear blessing, could you please tell me those values?

thanks Nerfix.

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You're welcome.

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where? In Finland? Thats too cold for me.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Pocus:
I like this idea of having auto search at your level minus xxx.

As much as I have tried, I have not found that investing 200 design points to get 9 or 10 in a magic scale was a good bet. Perhaps the demo limitations bias my results, perhaps not.

A pro argument for high magic levels : the scales dont give much now, far less than in doms I. We have perhaps the bad habit to value them too much. What is worth 120 design points now? (for growth +3, a 30.000 pop province, it is a meager +180 pop a turn, and +6% income IIRC). Perhaps it is worth to invest them in a high magic level.

Even so, it's practically impossible to get two 9s. I just tried it with C'tis, which (IMX) can afford some negative scales: to get Nature 9 Death 9 with a Father of Serpents (the most cost-effective choice despite his high base cost because he is skilled in both paths), I had to take Death 2, Sloth 2, Heat 1 and had no points left to boost dominion strength, get a castle or take any positive scales (like magic, which C'tis really needs). This is of course without the 200-point Desert Tombs theme - it's hard to even get two 4's with such an expensive theme.

Maybe Ashen Empire, Soul Gates or Carrion Woods can afford to take 12 negative scales and have the points to get a powerful bless. But most nations can't.

Either Gods that are skilled in paths of magic need a higher base skill (this would help A LOT for reaching high levels, because it would reduce the cost for each level by 8 and make you have to buy fewer levels - if the Father of Serpents started with Nature 3, Death 2 instead of Nature 2, Death 1 it would probably have saved over 150 points), or the costs to increase magic levels for Gods need to be sharply reduced (say, half as much per level except for the first level). Obviously the second proposal would also benefit archmages while the first would not (except for archmages that start out with one path, like Frost Father or Arch Druid).

It's not that I don't want to take stronger magic on my God at setup; it's that I can't afford to, even with few or no positive scales and a points-cheap castle. I don't like this, because I really like the idea of Gods having more powerful magic (and the bless system that ties into it). So why do they start with less magic skill than mortal mages?


Although I posted earlier that I'd like to see bless effects start lower, I'm recanting that position: what I really want is to see it become more affordable to have a magically powerful God. A magically mediocre God with good bless effects isn't nearly as much fun as a magically awesome God with good bless effects (even if I have to go up against stronger enemy Gods as well).

If this spells the demise of the no-magic, scale-pushing Wyrm, I won't shed any tears. I always thought it was a boring (though effective) choice in Dom I, both to play as and against.

[PvK]

How many gems does it take to empower a pretender the Last few scales to reach level nine, during play?

Does using the various power-boosting magic items in the game contribute to the bless effect? Because those make it relatively easy to gain a raw +1 to +3 power in various fields.

PvK

[licker]

I believe the bless effects are hard wired to your starting spell picks. Otherwise it would be too easy to cheese I think

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Nerfix:
I suspect it would help. Diversication or not, it could/would lead to players taking magic on their Pretenders. And that is your style of play. I can take 9 Fire with Moloch and get ok scales and a decent fort.

Only if you play a nation like Abysia and take 3 Death and 3 Heat. I still simply don't see the minor bless benefits as worth an investment equivalent to _4.2_ scales -- and that's in the best case scenario.

As another example for Abysia, IMHO you'd be clearly better off taking 4 Fire, 3 Air on a Moloch, which would also cost less -- despite Moloch's path cost of 70.

I agree everyone has their own style of play, but would you really take a Fire 9 Pretender in a multiplayer game?

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nerfix:
I suspect it would help. Diversication or not, it could/would lead to players taking magic on their Pretenders. And that is your style of play. I can take 9 Fire with Moloch and get ok scales and a decent fort.

Only if you play a nation like Abysia and take 3 Death and 3 Heat. I still simply don't see the minor bless benefits as worth an investment equivalent to _4.2_ scales -- and that's in the best case scenario.

As another example for Abysia, IMHO you'd be clearly better off taking 4 Fire, 3 Air on a Moloch, which would also cost less -- despite Moloch's path cost of 70.

I agree everyone has their own style of play, but would you really take a Fire 9 Pretender in a multiplayer game?

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I was able to get Fortified City, 3 Order & Prod and i didn't have to take the death scale.

If you don't take the minors, you only get +3 Morale...

Why not? I don't consider 3 Order & Prod, Fortified City and non-negative Growth that bad.
Fear the Blessed Units of Flaming Death.

[ October 30, 2003, 12:48: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

[johan osterman]

Yes, bless effects are solely based on starting values. You cannot change them, by death empowerment or items.

[Psitticine]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
The main problem, it seems to me, is the increasingly higher cost of higher magic levels - it's O(n^2), which is really painful.

The actual cost to move up is only (current power * 8). To get a power of 10, assuming you start with 1, will cost 441 points. That's a lot, but it depends on your play style whether it is worth it or not. It also wouldn't normally cost that much, since one would be unlikely to start with a god whose basic power is only 1 in the path the player wants to maximize.

I don't like negative scales, usually take the 60-point Fortress, take a lot of magical power, and still manage to tweak the scales into a mildly benifical state. I agree completely that larger maps will tilt that balance so that the scales have more importance, but that would just make me aim for 6 or 7 in my primary path instead of 9 or 10.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Psitticine:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Byler:
The main problem, it seems to me, is the increasingly higher cost of higher magic levels - it's O(n^2), which is really painful.

The actual cost to move up is only (current power * 8).

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Actually it's more complex than that - it's (power you are moving to - base power in that path for that form) * 8.

I wasn't quite clear in my earlier post - it's the cumulative cost to achieve a higher magic level that is O(n^2). For example, if you start with power 2 in a given path:

level 2 costs 0
level 3 costs 8, total 8
level 4 costs 16, total 24
level 5 costs 24, total 48
level 6 costs 32, total 80
level 7 costs 40, total 120
level 8 costs 48, total 168
level 9 costs 56, total 224
level 10 costs 64, total 288

You see how level 9 costs twice as much as level 7?

And that's if you start at level 2. Many things don't start with any paths above level 1 (great mother, phoenix, frost father, arch druid), and of course some don't start with any above level 0 (archmages, wyrm, manticore). Few god forms start with a path at level 3. Liches, maybe moloch and PoD, maybe the immobiles.

To get a power of 10, assuming you start with 1, will cost 441 points.

I don't see how you arrive at that figure - it isn't even a multiple of 8. I make it 360. Neglecting your god form's base cost, of course - many cost over 100 (and get only modest magical skill).

I'd like to see a cheap form with base level 3 in a given path (even if it was physically weak). That would at least make it practical to get a high level of that one path. But I can't think of any forms that meet that condition, other than the immobile ones. (Liches have level 3, IIRC, but have a base cost over 100.)

That's a lot, but it depends on your play style whether it is worth it or not. It also wouldn't normally cost that much, since one would be unlikely to start with a god whose basic power is only 1 in the path the player wants to maximize.

I don't like negative scales, usually take the 60-point Fortress, take a lot of magical power, and still manage to tweak the scales into a mildly benifical state. I agree completely that larger maps will tilt that balance so that the scales have more importance, but that would just make me aim for 6 or 7 in my primary path instead of 9 or 10.

Oh, I don't dispute that 6 or 7 in one path is achievable (and still have either a form with some physical might, or a decent number of net positive scales). I wouldn't expect to see much in other paths, though.

I just think the high-level bless effects are cool, but the cost of reaching level 9 is prohibitive unless your form starts with 4+. No god form that I know of starts with more than 3. Thus the problem.


As an example, suppose we wanted to design a god whose bless effect would duplicate the Dom I bless effect. This requires Fire 6, Blood 6. I don't know of any form that starts with skill in fire and blood, so we will have to build one of them up from zero. Let's take the Fountain of Blood - it costs 0 and has a new path cost of 40, I don't think we can do better than that. It starts with Blood 3 (one of the few forms that starts with 3 power in a path), so it will only cost us 48 points to raise that to 6. Fire 6 will cost us 200 points, so we've just spent half our points.

That's not too bad - except that it's for an immobile pretender. Anything else would have been more expensive - a Moloch, for instance, has a base cost of 75, new path cost of 50 and starts with only Fire 2, so overall it would have cost us an extra 117 points (a total of 365).


Maybe it's just my expectations - I thought the intent of the new bless system was to make blessings more varied and more useful, not just more varied (and frequently less useful, unless you invest a lot in god magic). Furthermore I don't like the idea that a god with a 100 point base cost needs to have another 50 or 60 points spent on his magic skills so he will be as powerful as a mortal mage. Most of the titan/demigod forms cost 100+ for 2 or 2/1 (and their physical stats aren't that impressive, although they can generally manage to stay alive on the battlefield). And archmages have an even harder time reaching higher magic levels, because they start with 0 in everything (or everything but one).


I just don't want to see a situation where only Abysia, Caelum and Ermor can afford to take strong magic and strong blessings.