Usmc oob

[sammy1339]

After not playing the game for a couple years I decided to come back and play the campaign "5th Marines 1967" again, which kind of stumped me the first time. I was a little disappointed to find that version 8.0 had introduced some unimprovements into the USMC units.

- The most egregious was that the M202 66 mm flame rocket was available starting in 1967. While this did make the game vastly easier for me, I looked it up and found that this weapon was not introduced until 1978! Flamethrowers also disappear at the same time, which is incorrect. Marine units with the M202 in the 1960's include 379, 382, and 418. I didn't check the USA file.

- Although it's only cosmetic, the ordinary M16 rifle (used from 1962-1967) has disappeared, being replaced by the M16A1/A2. There's also an instantaneous change from the M14 to the M16, which is definitely not accurate. The M16 was gradually phased in.

- I find it really weird that all M16-equipped rifle squads until 1968 (unit #369) use the Stoner 63 as a SAW. This weapon was fielded only in very limited numbers, mostly with SEALs if I'm not mistaken. I'm pretty sure the marines used the M60 machinegun in this role, as was the case in earlier OOB's. I've noticed there are no more infantry squads with M60's.

- This is more of a gripe than anything, but I was a bit disappointed to find that the M40 sniper rifle had an accuracy of 40. Snipers in this game are already a good replacement for entire infantry squads as well as scouts, and are definitely not in need of improvement. I also looked at other OOB's and found that their snipers have not improved. Do we really believe that the M40 sniper rifle is significantly superior to similar Russian weapons? Even if you think that the US rifles have better optics (debatable, especially for the Vietnam era) this should be reflected in "Fire Control," right?

There were also good changes, such as that the M728's 165 mm gun actually fires HESH rounds now, but it seems like a lot of things were changed to make them less historically accurate than in previous versions.

[sammy1339]

AH-1G Cobra is also available from 1/1967. It should probably be 1/1968.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by sammy1339

- The most egregious was that the M202 66 mm flame rocket was available starting in 1967. While this did make the game vastly easier for me, I looked it up and found that this weapon was not introduced until 1978! Flamethrowers also disappear at the same time, which is incorrect. Marine units with the M202 in the 1960's include 379, 382, and 418. I didn't check the USA file.

I'll deal with these one at a time for the sake of simplicity.

"The M202 series of launchers was developed in the late 1960s as a replacement for the individual portable flamethrower in the US Army. The weapon was designed to provide the infantryman with a better means of neutralizing or destroying enemy gun emplacements and fortified positions. Initially, the complete system consisting of the XM202 launcher and a clip of 4 XM74 rockets, plus other associated equipment and additional ammunition, was designated as the XM191 Multi-Shot Portable Flame Weapon (MPFW). The US Army and the US Marine Corps both evaluated the XM191 system, including field testing in Southeast Asia by the USMC between July and October 1969. The decision to develop additional types of rockets, including the M96 rocket, led to the dropping of the complete system designation XM191 and the usage of the launcher designation and specific rocket designations separately."

I can tell you with 100% certainty the M202 was not introduced in the USMC as late as 1978 because I was in the USMC in 1974 and we had them. Now it's possible (and probable) the US Army didn't get them till 1978.


While July 1969 (see above) is NOT 1967 in many cases weapon introduction dates in WInSPMBT are "tweaked" a bit to coincide with changes to unit "standard" OOB and/or weapons and more importantly picklist "start"/"end" dates.

The older "flame thrower" was removed for the same reason any weapon is, simplicity and overall unit count. While the game can support multiple weapons that perform the same function it's FAR simpler and easier to phase one out when another phases in. Look at tank upgrades. In most cases one day BAM all tanks in an OOB suddenly upgrade to a new model.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by sammy1339

- Although it's only cosmetic, the ordinary M16 rifle (used from 1962-1967) has disappeared, being replaced by the M16A1/A2. There's also an instantaneous change from the M14 to the M16, which is definitely not accurate. The M16 was gradually phased in.

- I find it really weird that all M16-equipped rifle squads until 1968 (unit #369) use the Stoner 63 as a SAW. This weapon was fielded only in very limited numbers, mostly with SEALs if I'm not mistaken. I'm pretty sure the marines used the M60 machinegun in this role, as was the case in earlier OOB's. I've noticed there are no more infantry squads with M60's.

Since (except for one experimental battalion) the USMC as a whole didn't adopt the M16 until 1967 there was no real reason to include the M16/AR15 as opposed to the M16A1.

If you look at the OOB you see the M16 appearing as early as 1963 (unit# 369) and the M14 around until 1970 (unit# 358).

The Stoner 63 was used as part of that experimental battalion I mentioned earlier and NOT used anywhere else in the USMC (they simply gave "automatic riflemen" a bipod (99% of whom threw them away) and a few extra 20-round magazines (since the 30-round ones didn't exist at the time).
If you're playing a pre-built scenario it's up to the scenario designer to select the units used in it. Don't assume ANY scenario represents "typical" units of the period.

[Suhiir]

P.S.
The USMC most definitely did NOT use the M60 in the SAW role like the US Army did, that was explicitly removed from the OOB with the revision.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by sammy1339

- This is more of a gripe than anything, but I was a bit disappointed to find that the M40 sniper rifle had an accuracy of 40. Snipers in this game are already a good replacement for entire infantry squads as well as scouts, and are definitely not in need of improvement. I also looked at other OOB's and found that their snipers have not improved. Do we really believe that the M40 sniper rifle is significantly superior to similar Russian weapons? Even if you think that the US rifles have better optics (debatable, especially for the Vietnam era) this should be reflected in "Fire Control," right?

If you check other OOBs you'll see the standard "sniper rifle" is accuracy 30, range 15 vice the M40's accuracy 40, range 18. So it most definitely is a significant improvement.
The M40 wasn't introduced until 1966 (at the same time the USMC re-eatablished official "sniper" units having dropped them after WW II) and yes, they did and do replace the "scout" teams typically used until that time. Because scouting IS their primary function not "sniping".
As to optics that's built in (46-53 vision 0, 53-65 vision 5, 66-69 vision 10, etc.), you'll note the "fire control" of the average USMC sniper in the game is "professional quality" (10) vice 0 or 5 as for other OOBs.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by sammy1339

There were also good changes, such as that the M728's 165 mm gun actually fires HESH rounds now, but it seems like a lot of things were changed to make them less historically accurate than in previous versions.

Good point!
This is one I overlooked.
I don't have access to the exact weapon formulas used in the game, Don, Andy, what should the stats for a 165mm HESH round be?

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by sammy1339

AH-1G Cobra is also available from 1/1967. It should probably be 1/1968.

Look up "Marines and Helicopters 1962-1973" by the History and Museums Division, US Marine Corps. The first AH-1 arrived in Vietnam 29 Aug 1967.
Again the date was "tweaked" a bit to coincide with the picklists used. Originally I had one three times as large as the one currently used in the game, and for a change Don and I agreed on something, that was insane.

[Suhiir]

If you have other concerns/questions feel free to post them. I love well considered/documented criticism and since I had the privilege of being allowed to rebuild the USMC OOB I get to save Don the headaches and frustration of answering most questions concerning it.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Good point!
This is one I overlooked.
I don't have access to the exact weapon formulas used in the game, Don, Andy, what should the stats for a 165mm HESH round be?

As you say in post #9, you're the author of this OOB so you get to answer the questions. The quote in the first part acknowledges that the 165mm gun fired HESH rounds and that we have it set up as a HESH gun. This was done for winSPMBT v7 so that is a year and a half old news now and when it was changed to a HESH weapon in 2013 the specs were changed from what was there previously when it was set up as WC#7.

That said, the HESH issue is secondary to the main point of that paragraph and this is

"a lot of things were changed to make them less historically accurate than in previous versions"

and that comment is ALL YOURS to deal with as it has nothing to do with adding HESH to the game in 2013

However I will confirm that some things *may* be off by a year or two as all the factors that make up picklists were taken into account. Right now the USMC picklist is the most complicated picklist in the game but it could have been at least twice the size it is now to accommodate all the little nit picking details like EXACTLY when weapons went in and out of service and the decision was made to pare it down to a more manageable size.

The first question I'd ask Sammy1339 is how long he served in the USMC and just where he " looked up " the info for the M202


Don