Polish OOB 5.5

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

054 OT-62 (TOPAS) - according to vague sources, they were kept as long, as 1994-95, when former landing units were finally dissolved (now: 12/96). I wrote some 1991, but 1995 seems a better date as for now.
There are problems with ending dates of most units, since they are usually not given clearly in publications, so it's often based upon best knowledge, but liable to be changed, when better data are found.

Which proves the point about the utter futility of doing this over and over and over as new "vague sources" are found. The two years from now somebody else comes along and their new "source" says it should be 1996 again.

There's a fine line between accuracy and obsessiveness. I want to encourage error reporting but I want to DISCOURAGE obsessing over details like this.

If you have info that shows we have the date running to 2020 and it went OOS 2005 then I want to know about it but don't concern yourself too much with a year here or that becasue AS YOU HAVE ALREADY PROVED.....sources differ and with much of this stuff hard info is hard to find and a lot of these "experts" are just guessing too.

Don

[Pibwl]

I understand your point. I agree, that 1995 or 1996 for a withdrawal date isn't much difference indeed, but in this case it is sure, that all units, that used Topas were disbanded in 1995 or before.
By "vague sources" I meant in this case article in Polish Wikipedia with a statement, that the 7th Coastal Defence Brigade was disbanded in 1995 due to reaching exploitation limits of Topas and PT-76. It would suggest, that they were used until the brigade's end; unfortunately, with no reference to support it. According to other articles, in 1994 there were disbanded most (if not all) brigade's battalions.

Michal

[DRG]

Well, if I'm going to make changes it helps to have one chunk at a time that ties up loose ends. If the info comes over two or three days that's fine but as it stands now the end dates for wheeled APC's is undetermined .... you say 1991 but I have units that go to 2004 and that means either starting 1/92 or 1/2005 the motorized engineers are walking to work so if somethings a work in progress tell me it's a WIP and I'll wait for part 2

Don

[Pibwl]

Speaking of class 251 APC - the only unit:

457 Rys M-98 - as I've indicated above, Ryś mortar carrier remained a prototype and it seems, that Ryś family (sadly) has no future. 98mm mortars are carried by Humvees or trucks.

Michal

[DRG]

It's not "too much work" to check if the new ones are "better" because the new ones ARE better and easy to recognize. Ridding the game of the poor quality LBM's has been my intent for years, I've just always been busy with other things. This year I started work on this more as a break from the repetitious " Unit B in Nation Y is size 3 and the rest are size 2" "error" reports I've been wading through for two months.

Go ahead and continue to make photo change suggestions if you like but even the ones you mentioned at the end ("like Ya-12 tractor 29395) has already been replaced by a better quality photo and "Mazur tractor 29390" has already been used and added to the game as "D-530 Tractor"

I clear photos that are unused for use later as something more useful if the quality is poor. There are lots that were provided from outside that were not resized correctly and those get cleared as soon as I find them. Anything that is of decent quality that is a photo and not a reproduction of artwork I have been saving for possible use later. There's just too many photos ( and not enough time ) to check every one so this will be a WIP for awhile but for the most part the worst offenders will be gone this next release and most of the ones I cannot readily identify that are not currently used in the game and are poor quality have been ( and will be ) used for something else. I can see no point in adding more new photo numbers to the game when I have a scrap yard of unused junk sitting in the files.


Don

[DRG]

I'll split the difference and make it end 1984.

RPG-7MT already changed to WC22

Don

[DRG]

Michal......... Do you see SP minelet launchers in anyone elses OOB???

[Pibwl]

It's only because I saw its picture and read about minelet artillery.

OK, the rest:

Speaking of Mi-24s, more appropriate icon for most of their service is a camouflaged one 3487. Only since several years, refitted helicopters are painted dark green.

Time for Rosomaks:

207 and 681 Rosomak - despite plans, Rosomak turret hasn't been integrated with Spike. Isn't 18+18 ammo for a gun too low number? (it carries 470 rounds; USMC LAV-25 has 30+33 for 25mm gun). It can carry only 8 troops - in any way, not 13 (sections #337 or 338 should fit)

Since 8/2007 Rosomaks (Polish: wolverine) employed in Afghanistan received additional armour plating on hull front and sides and partly on turret sides (photo: http://www.armyrecognition.com/image...O_2008_001.jpg, armour in white: http://www.altair.com.pl/cz-art-814 ). All Rosomaks in the game are uparmoured - in fact only part vehicles should be uparmoured. But I think, that frontal steel armour 12 hull and 9 turret is an overkill - the new armour is meant to be proof against 14.5mm (pen=3), level IV STANAG 4569. And I'm not sure, if Heat armour, especially side one (10, comparing to steel 4) is justified. All uparmoured Rosomaks can't swim.

(Polish chief of staff claimed, that new armour plating is meant also to protect forward portion against RPG-7, but I'm not sure if he knew what he was talking about... Armour 15 shouldn't stop RPG-7 anyway. On the other hand, there were cases, when Rosomaks survived RPG shots - without closer details, where and if they were penetrating).

So, 207 and 681 should be two units:
- Rosomak with lighter armour (typical for wheeled APC of that class, like LAV-25 or Pandur? - some 4/3/2), available 1/105-120.
- Rosomak M1, with heavy armour (but maybe not that heavy), available from 8/07, without swimming ability.

All standard Rosomaks are plain green 3541, on all operation theatres (maybe apart from a winter one) - they aren't used in a desert. Rosomaks M1, used in Afghanistan, should be also green until end of 2009 - only then the main staff allowed to paint them sand Brown and green camo 3543 isn't used.

From around 7/10 there was a new model introduced, with Qinetiq RPGnet side and rear screens (according to http://gdziewojsko.wordpress.com/woz...e/kto-rosomak/ , named Rosomak M1M) http://www.altair.com.pl/start-4555


208 Rosomak 1 - in fact, Rosomak 1 APC program was abandoned (after several years of trials different MG-armed unmanned turrets). But two models of a simple protected ring weapon mounting (with open roof), were developed instead. They have no special FC, nor RF, nor stabilizer. This unit can be changed to Rosomak M3, with heavy ring mounting (OSS-D) and additional armour, used from mid-2008. It should be sand 3569 (or plain green 3567)

It needs date correction of formations using 217 MRV APC class.

672, 673 Rosomak 1 - as above - they can be Rosomak M3 variants, without FC, RF, stabilizer and swimming ability. Armament of 40mm GL is correct (of course, Mk19 one, but this is the only model used).

Also Rosomak M3 from around 7/10 started to be fitted with side screens (assumed designation: Rosomak M3M)


There should be created also a second model of Rosomak, with OSS-M protected ring mounting (unnamed - I suggest Rosomak OSS-M). It should have light armour and swimming ability, used from mid-2008. Icon: plain green 3567. Two units should be created, with 12.7mm NSVT AAMG or 40mm AGL Mk19 (variant with 7.62mm PK can be omitted IMO). It has no SD.


680 Rosomak 2 - planned variant with Spike (and possibly new unmanned turret). It should be available from some 114. Vehicles probably will have no additional armour, but retain swimming ability (rather used for country defence, than for missions). Second unit with additional armour could be created anyway. Icon: 3548 plain green.

835 Rosomak R - 6-wheeled Rosomak is sure not used, most probably abandoned at all.
In formation 342 MRV Rec Sec it can be replaced with normal 30-mm armed Rosomak APC.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

Rest:

232 Ammo Truck - better picture is 29388 - Polish modern Jelcz.

236 WZT-1 - as a standard, it has no dozer - this is ARV, not engineer tank. Useless IMO.

237 WZT-2 - commissioned in 1979 (now 1/78) [Poligon 5/2010]

238 WZT-3 - commissioned in 1989 (now 1/105) [Poligon 5/2010 and others]. Armour of this ARRV should be definitely no better, than basic T-72M tank (#16), if not worse. AAMG should be 017 NSVT. Full name (rarely used though) is WZT-3 Bizon. Correct picture is 29531 (confused with MID). It might have 3 or 4 SD (now 2) - it has 12 tubes.

239 IWT - only 5 prototypes were made around 1976 [Poligon 5/2010] and used for a short time. Full name is IWT Klon. Might be removed - or made available until end of 1980s at best, with radio 1 or 3.

240 MID (engineer tank) - armour should be definitely no better, than basic T-72M tank (#16), if not worse. AAMG should be 017 NSVT. Correct picture is 29383 (confused with WZT-3). Full name (rarely used) is MID Bizon-S. Used in limited numbers from 1998 or even earlier (1/08) - should have radio 91 [Raport 10/98]
In a free time, there could be created new icon for MID and future WZT-4, with a crane on the right.

BTW: MID-M variant, with .50 AAMG, should be also used by Malaysia from 2009.

241 T-34/85 WPT (ammo carrier) - it was ARRV, not supposed as ammo carrier, and without much room for ammo. Anyway, proper name is WPT-34 and they were produced only from mid-60s (now: 1/50) [Poligon 5/2010]. To be removed IMO - useless.

243 Headquarters - should be rather armed with general issue 008 rifle, not SMG - and be available until 120 (or until next unit)

244 Headquarters - wz.89 Onyks SMG wasn't adopted to service. Should be armed with general issue 029 AKM(S) rifle, and be available from some 1965 (now: 1/90).

245 Headquarters - it should have general issue 028 Beryl rifle - Beryl SMG wasn't widely adopted.

249 Crew - better picture is 14249 (TT, used until 1970s, instead of some German one)

280 Formoza Navy SF - in fact, frogmen special unit, nicknamed Formoza (later it became an official name), was created in 1976. First unit (might be this one) should use ordinary 029 AKM(S) rifle, especially, that Onyks SMG wasn't adopted.

283 Formoza Navy SF - wz.2003 LMG wasn't commissioned - it was to be a Polish equivalent of Minimi. In fact, redundant unit because of 282. Wz.2003 LMG might be replaced in weapons file with Minimi Para, used by special forces, but I don't know if it makes sense, considering its narrow usage. In that case, in other units wz.2003 LMG should be replaced with 16 UKM-2000 LMG

290 Special Forces - early Special Forces would sure use 006 SMG instead of a bolt rifle. RPG-2 was used only from 1953 - earlier there were grenades only. Next unit 291 could be made available from 1953, and P-27 Pancerovka (briefly used) should be replaced with RPG-2

300 Rifle Section - Panzerfaust were very scarse, not used in infantry sections [Poligon 2/2011]. Should be replaced with AT grenades.

305 Cavalry Section - primary armament should be probably PPSh SMG #09, not LMG I don't think, that cavalry sections carried 7-feet-long PTRD on horses... (AT grenades rather)

314, 315 Mech Rifle Sec - P-27 should be replaced with standard RPG-2.

317 Rifle Section - it seems improbable, that in 55-79 there would exist regular infantry sections without LMG (there were plenty of them, especially from beginning of 1950s.)

329 Rifle Section - AFAIK in 1980-99 there doesn't exist regular infantry without LMG in section. In all units 328-331 there should be 013 PKM LMG.

336 Rifle Section - definitely there doesn't exist in 100-120 regular infantry without LMG in a section. In all units 325-338 there should be 016 UKM-2000 LMG.

I have no time now to check precisely structure of infantry platoons in the game, but sections without LMG should be definitely wiped out.

360 Naval Infantry - was created in 1951 (now 1/55) [Raport 8/07] - needs change in formation.

365 Pe-2 Peszka - more precise name is Pe-2FT Peszka (though Peszka is informal and might be left out). Ithas too much load - it could carry 10x 100 kg OR 4x250 bombs (now: 6x100, 4x250) - max 1000 kg.
It could be fighter-bomber as well - in fact it was a dive bomber. It would have 1x #175 12.7mm UBS and 1x #174 7.62mm then.

366, 367 Il-28 - delivered in 10/52 (operational from some 1/53), used only until 77. Needs change of formation's last date.

368, 374 Su-20MK - name was just Su-20 (Su-17MK was Russian designation). Withdrawn in 2/97. Proper picture of the Polish Su-20 is 29126 (now it's Su-22)

376 B10 RCL HE - used from 1/55 (1/50) until 1980s (12/99)

378 SPG9 RCL HE - apparently still in service, possibly until 120 (12/94). Better rifle is 029 AKM(S)

380 82mm Vasilek - it's a detail, but better icon seems 54.

400 White Scout Car - PTRD ATR might have been used on some vehicles during the war, but it was withdrawn from the Polish service by 1948 (see #370). Most probable weapon is just one DT AAMG - DShK was quite bulky weapon and it didn't automatically replace .50 Browning on vehicles.

401 BA-64 in 12/54 there were 97 BA-64 in inventory - I doubt if they were withdrawn that month. A weapon had high elevation - #242 AAMG could be more approproiate (for all countries). Most have no radio.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

400 White Scout Car - PTRD ATR might have been used on some vehicles during the war, but it was withdrawn from the Polish service by 1948 (see #370). Most probable weapon is just one DT AAMG - DShK was quite bulky weapon and it didn't automatically replace .50 Browning on vehicles.

401 BA-64 in 12/54 there were 97 BA-64 in inventory - I doubt if they were withdrawn that month. A weapon had high elevation - #242 AAMG could be more approproiate (for all countries). Most have no radio.

400 White scout car - PTRD definitely wasn't vehicle's armament. I think I've seen one photo of a Soviet vehicle with PTRD, but anyway, it wasn't a fixed weapon, only carried by the crew (most Soviet photos shows original American MGs). It's hard to say, what armament Polish vehicles had. They were given by the Soviets during the war and initially they sure had original .50 and .30 MGs - the question is, whether they were replaced with something more typical before withdrawal. If so, it would rather be DT AAMG only.
There were used few vehicles in Poland after the war (4 are known), and most probably 12/50 is closer to real ending date (now 12/54). Carry capacity should be 106 (108) (enough for a scout section).

401 BA-64 - withdrawn by the end of 1955 (12/54).

397 Mk 1 - pretty OK.

398 SPW 251/10a - I believe, that armament should be DT AAMG only, and it should be renamed to ordinary SdKfz 251/1. There could be few vehicles with tapering bore SpzB captured and used in combat during the war (two are known - although according to newer source, they were SdKfz-250/11). But it is doubtful, if they were used with such unique armament after the war (these two vehicles are known to be used until autumn 1945). Most captured SdKfz-251, used after the war, were sure MG-armed (if they had any fixed weapon at all), especially, that they were used to anti-partisan duties. They were not numerous BTW - probably no more, than dozen. Information on this subject is unfortunately scarce.
They were used used at least until some 1951 (now 12/48) by internal security units (fighting against Ukrainian nationalists). Crew should be 2 and capacity 110 or 111. Better picture (and without German crosses) is 29092.

There's no information how they were named - probably not under German military designation (which might have been not known anyway). IMHO "Hanomag Hkl 6p" name would be probable, from manufacturer's plates.

I think, that this vehicle (along with M2 halftracks, mentioned further), should be classified as halftrack APC rather - new formations of 1 halftrack APC or 2 or 4 APCs should be created, until some 1958 (to be utilized according to player needs).

399 SPW 250/10 - usage of SdKfz 250 post-war isn't known, though it's probable in internal security forces - maybe even until end of 1949-50.
MG armament is more probable, though 37mm gun can't be excluded (there is one wartime photo - 29095 - of such gun-armed vehicle, used by the Poles). Carry capacity should be 104 (106) (enough for a scout section).
IMHO more probable name might be Demag D7p

724 M3A1 - in fact, I can't see substantial differences from 400 White Scout Car. It's the same vehicle - one is redundant.

There should be added instead M2 Halftrack - a limited number used as APC by internal security forces until end of 1950s (some 1958) (along with SU-57 and M17 SP-guns with removed armament). Armament might be DT AAMG.

Regards
Michal