AI Air Defense

[Mobhack]

As stated many times before.

The game does not allow for a weeks-long suppression of enemy air defences campaign pre-game. (Only exception - AI buy of area/medium SAM for Iraq in the invasion since it's historically true).

The AI does not know about ammo trucks, so will not resupply any systems bought, unlike a human player. Nor will it move them about in a shell game like a human player al that much. So the human player will be able to "tease out" any existing ammo relatively easily or simply determine the launch area and splatter with arty before sending more air in. So the AI requires a decent amount of ADA in order to give it a sporting chance against a human player. And that amount is easily dealt with by a thinking player (one recce strike to determine the area of launch, then apply arty).

But SP series games start in ground artillery range. Therefore, there really is no requirement for fixed wing air whatsoever. Tube and rocket artillery is the most cost-efficient way of delivering bangs on target. Fixed wing is therefore really only relevant for scenarios - where the designer can determine that the enemy ADA has been attrited by previous SEAD campaign etc., or human v human battles with some sort of agreement by the other side that sure, he wont buy any ADA and is happy to let your planes run riot...

Aircraft are therefore rather irrelevant in generated battles as and until the ADA assets are reduced - they cannot give any meaningful contribution until they (or others like say an SAS raid) have dealt with these. (Helos can at least use terrain masking etc to contribute to the land battle while staying out of the envelope of medium or larger SAM).

So in stand-alone battles, it is best really to spend arty points on tube and rocket batteries, since those are in range and tend not to get shot down. Arty is an all-weather asset as well (planes may not have night vision).

Fixed wing air in non scenario battles are really only useful if you have a total technological superiority of some sort between your aircraft and the enemy ADA. (e.g. fighting the VC or Taleban who usually only have AAAMG). Or against a PBEM opponent who totally forgot to buy any ADA whatsoever !

Planes would be useful in a corps or division level map campaign, for their ability to be concentrated on a decisive point from airbases many miles away from the front. But this is not that sort of a map game. (And then you would still have to play an SEAD campaign before biffing targets most likely). The PROSIM games available from Shrapnel do that sort of thing I think ("operational" level).

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

......or hold them back for use late in the battle to help in the final coup de grâce. There are a lot of ways to handle this and as others have noted it CAN work when done "right"

Or we could re-write all the picklists so there are far less anti air assets so that human players can pound the crap out of the AI but then we'd get a whole new crop of people complaining.

Yes ?

As much as we have said this in the past it bears repeating.... we cannot make everyone happy. The game cannot be everything to everyone and it cannot be easy for newbies and challenging for experienced players at the same time but we do work to a keep things even as much as possible but there is no perfect sweet spot where every setting and every picklist and every unit cost makes everyone happy


Don

[Mobhack]

Also - AI pick lists have a random element built in.

So just like it may decide to "go large" on MBT purchases one time, the pick may buy more (or less) AAA items one pick as against the next, with exactly the same points and circumstances. That may arise from choosing cheaper (or horribly expensive) units if a formation of type X is picked, or by skipping the formation at the "buy type X formation" decision point.

Numbers also depend on the other "meat and potatoes" formations bought - e.g. if it bought cheaper APCs and second line MBTs and militia coys instead of say elite paratroopers then it may have more buy points remaining for expensive auxiliary platoons (attack helos, SAM, arty etc) - if less then the auxiliary formation buy may be a section of say 106mm RCL Jeeps or AAA trucks or whatever.

To examine the pick behaviour, simply set up the battle in the generator (set points and opponents, and date, type of battle, perhaps air strikes to a number, not XXX).

-Set computer player for both sides
-set computer purchase for both sides
-choose human deploy for both sides
-generate battle

Now - since you break into the game at the AI deployment, you can see what was picked by it this time.

Exit the battle after examining the AI force pick. (Or end deploy for the AI and look what at the AI auto bought for your side, if interested, then exit the generated game)

Now, repeat the process a significant amount of times (20 or so buys, if not more).

Repeat the process for several sets of buy points if required (one run at say 6K points, 12K, and 18K. Amount will vary as to era - 6K of 1950 hardware is a bigger force than 1980 obviously).

AI picks can vary by opponent too. USA versus VC in 1970s is likely to differ from a pick against the Soviets at the same time point for example. That includes flak units (Some armies may only buy a "fig leaf" of AA against some opponents - say USA v VC or vs Mujadeen). Iraqi AI pick in 2003 will tend not to buy area SAM (as it was neutralised by the Allied air campaign).

Cheers
Andy

[Suhiir]

I keep forgetting the rest of the world defines "Air Support" differently then the USMC.

"In 1947, the United States Air Force became a separate service, intent on strategic bombing. U. S. Air Force Forward Air Control expertise existed only on paper. Their doctrine ranked air operations importance as being primarily concentrated on strategic bombing, with interdiction operations secondary, and close air support last. The Air Force believed in central control of close air support originated by FACs within Tactical Air Control Parties assigned to the Army at regimental and divisional level.

By contrast, the U. S. Marine Corps placed its TACPs down to battalion level. When deployed on operations each USMC infantry company is allocated an FAC.

The greatest practical difference between the two systems lays in their very definition of close air support.
The Air Force considers air strikes anywhere within artillery range of friendly units to be close air support.
The Marines defined it as air strikes within 50 to 200 yards of friendly troops, delivered within fifteen minutes of request."

Up until the invention of laser guided artillery (and even now) the USMC has preferred their version of close air support over artillery because a Marine pilot can place a bomb where it's needed, on a target, instead of somewhere in the vicinity like artillery.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Let's not forget the Vietnam War term "Broken Arrow" which brought all available air assets regardless of who was flying it into the fray for close in air support as happened in the Ia Drang Valley (Danger Close.) in '65. But I have to think the CORPS and Navy lead the way and perfected it as much as the technology would allow for the concept in WWII such as at Iwo. The battle of Kursk was not only the largest tank battle of WWII but also one of the largest air battles as well where close in air support made a difference more so on the Russian side. And now "fiiget a bout it" it's so deadly.

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

I always get a laugh out of the Army Air Corps attempts to use B-17 to hit ships during WWII. As I recall they did hit a couple (like two, TOTAL) by accident.
I've never understood how they expected to hit a ship when they considered 50% of their bombs landing within one mile of a stationary target (during the infamous 1000 plane raids) pin point accuracy.
Classic case of "I have a cause to champion; AIRPOWER WINS WARS ! So don't bother me with the facts" I guess.

[Wdll]

Yes, but the navy pilots didn't have few million angry Germans shooting at them, did they?
Cause if they used same tactics over land there would be no one left.

[scJazz]

Having been directed to this thread by MobHack...

(NOTE: I tend not to play campaigns in the modern era where clusters, TI, etc mean instant doom to any non-American army)

IMO using Air Sorties is foolish. As Mobhack already pointed out, "Tube and rocket artillery is the most cost-efficient way of delivering bangs on target". The AI would appear to be spending rather large amounts of points on AA assets. OK you could use a single sortie early to identify AA concentrations. Then suppress them with Artillery and finally SEAD them out of existence. Eventually, clearing the way for Air strikes on targets of interest. In a way this makes sense. Unfortunately, I would end up spending far to many points on a goal of suppressing enemy AA when my main plan is to deal with enemy ground pounders.

So, ignore Air Sorties would appear to be the plan. This makes the use of Vietnam era Helicopter gunships suicidal. So that platoon of same that I purchased sits basically unused. Worse, if I manage what looks like I break through exploiting it becomes crazy as hell since AA gun > IFV and even sometimes MBT. So what is a guy to do?

[Suhiir]

scJazz,

Yes, fixed wing air is pretty much a waste of points when playing against the AI. it's one of the "features" of the game. Artillery is far more effective and cost effective. (Note: Considering their relative value in game I have no clue why fixed wing air costs so much ... but that's another issue)

On reflection my comments a couple posts ago about how 99% of the world views and uses close air support makes how WinSPMBT handles the situation probably the best solution available.

Helicopters however are another case entirely.

While they can't travel with relative impunity vs anything other the the sort of rudimentary air defenses the VC (or NVA in the south) had they can be very useful.

Keep a couple with decent EW at the edge of MPAD range and pop them up to high altitude to soak off the hordes of MPADs the AI buys (never less then 9-15 for a battalion size battle), and spot any other AA weapons. Then use artillery to suppress any AA-Guns. After 3-4 turns of this you can do your air assault.

Attack helos can also be very useful. Personally I never allow then to op fire. During my turn I use them as airborne snipers to pick off opposition tanks and ATGM vehicles. And always, always buy ammo vehicles as battles vs the AI virtually guarantee you will run out of ammo long before you run out of targets. I tend to purchase one ammo vehicle per company and rotate one infantry platoon at a time back to rearm.

[scJazz]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

scJazz,

*SNIP*
(Note: Considering their relative value in game I have no clue why fixed wing air costs so much ... but that's another issue)
*SNIP*
Helicopters however are another case entirely.

While they can't travel with relative impunity vs anything other the the sort of rudimentary air defenses the VC (or NVA in the south) had they can be very useful.

Keep a couple with decent EW at the edge of MPAD range and pop them up to high altitude to soak off the hordes of MPADs the AI buys (never less then 9-15 for a battalion size battle), and spot any other AA weapons. Then use artillery to suppress any AA-Guns. After 3-4 turns of this you can do your air assault.

Attack helos can also be very useful. Personally I never allow then to op fire. During my turn I use them as airborne snipers to pick off opposition tanks and ATGM vehicles. And always, always buy ammo vehicles as battles vs the AI virtually guarantee you will run out of ammo long before you run out of targets. I tend to purchase one ammo vehicle per company and rotate one infantry platoon at a time back to rearm.

Now that you mention it I agree. Considering the worthlessness of Air Strikes they are too costly. Wanted: 50% off sale on Air Strikes for holiday season!

Ohhh how I wish I was fighting against rudimentary air defenses of the NVA and VC. I said Vietnam era, not Vietnam Actually, I'm fighting Cuba and USSR in a Cuban Invasion campaign. They have approximately 8 ****tons of AA units per platoon.

Sadly, none of these are MPADs, all guns. I don't have enough Helos to get them to run out of ammo OPFiring at me and since Vietnam gunships, if we could call them that, don't have EW even if I did it would be insane.

I try very hard not to use ATGM gunships vs the AI as I consider it kinda sorta cheating