Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC

[Finalgenesis]

I've noticed that I've only used awake/sleeping rainbow mage (Usually humans, sometimes master lich/ ghost king) and never SCs. I value the magic diversity, crafting flexibility, summoning options and the immense gem income from site searchs from a rainbow much too highly to ever use anything but a rainbow. Spells like contact naiad, stream from hades, ether lord, draconians, troll court...etc are just amazing mid-late game for good diversification.

It seems that most SC require either some items or Dom 9-10 to help out (with exception to Gorgon SC maybe), and I can't seem to shell out the points to do that. It seems to be a waste to dump so much points into a SC who gets weaker in enemy dom, whereas a rainbow can give you a huge exponential boost to gem income and summon multiple thug/SC chasis later on in addition to mad crafting and summoning. I have a checklist of summons and artifacts I HAVE to have to sleep at night (dwarf hammer, boots of quickness, boots of flight...etc).

Of course I've never used SC pretenders before, and as I understand it, it is really for is early game expansion and early-mid province defense? Any players who use SC pretender a lot can enlighten me why anyone would use SC over rainbow generally? (I can see SC for certain nations needing a boost to early expansion or heavy bless, but not general usage)

[Squirrelloid]

Cyclops is the pretender that comes to mind which can SC early and doesn't need high dominion.

Preference is based on the nation I'm playing and what it needs. Some nations need rainbows. Some need SCs. Some need a bless chassis. Some need a focused forger. Some just need something cheap so they can take great scales. Some need a compromise between two of the above. Some can afford to do something else entirely (Lord of the Gates comes to mind).

[Gandalf Parker]

You dont list bless as a separate option? Is that supposed to be in Other?

[Finalgenesis]

Ah I assumed a sleeping/imprisoned SC or rainbow includes blessing. Something like:

Awake SC : Early expansion / maybe light blessing / minor diversify magic
Sleepy SC : Heavy blessing / minor diversify magic
Awake Rainbow : Early site search / research / light blessing / crafting
Sleepy Rainbow : Site search / Hv blessing / crafting

I meant the choice to be all inclusive of anything using the above 4 pretender choice, Others would be immobile pretender or anything else.

Indeed I find that even for bless nations (EA Mictlan) I use rainbow pretender to throw them on. I just find that most guide I read uses a SC pretender with 2-4 paths focus (I've maybe read one or two guide which uses a heavy rainbow pretender), whereas I usually go 4-7 paths for every nation.

[rdonj]

In SP I would be very hard-pressed to take an SC pretender. You're right, usually the magic diversity and gem income are much better. And even on impossible difficulty, it's quite possible for most nations to compete effectively with the AI without an awake SC. In my opinion those are more useful for competitive MP games, where provinces are at a minimum and rush deterrent may be more valuable than long term diversity and power, especially if that SC allows you to make a quick land grab on an opponent's territory.

Personally though I dislike awake SCs for much the same reasons you do, and I would never take one unless with a nation that I just didn't feel needed anything else, or was so weak early game that I had no other choice (i.e. the alugra mod in SP, which I've finally given up on trying to make work without one).

[Squirrelloid]

Consider an S6 Dom 8 Oracle with O3P3G3L3M3 and your choice of H3 or C3. That's neither a rainbow or an SC, and its the extreme end of a perfectly good pretender archetype. (basically pure scales with good dominion and enough astral to matter later).

Consider an S9F9W9 Dom 7 Oracle w/ T2S3H3D3L3Dr2. Not unreasonable for a nation like LA Mictlan who wants a big bless, and can control its dominion spread by choosing if and when to blood sacrifice (so it only really suffers the effects of its dominion in and around its capital). Less extreme versions of that can certainly be imagined. Its also not an SC or a rainbow.

I'm not sure how you would classify a Forge Lord. I mean, he's not really a rainbow, but you'll probably drop 3-4 paths on him. He can SC, but you're not going to use him as one. He's going to sit in a lab and forge stuff.

[Finalgenesis]

Those would be "Others", while I might want to test them, I'm too addicted to rainbow ...

Maybe once I play MP more I'll have a better appreciation of SC

[rdonj]

With regards to bless pretenders: If at all possible to take an SCable pretender as your bless nation, it is a good idea. Most heavy blesses are not that great for late game spellcasting, and aside from some forging and big globals and such, there is not much that a non-SC pretender there can offer you. Whereas, if you take an SC pretender, it gives you a powerful unit that can be useful and tough to kill whatever you're using it for in the late game, which can be very useful. Whether as a battlefield spellcaster or a frontline combatant. And if you're going strong enough of a bless to be imprisoned, your pretender should hopefully not have to do a whole lot of diversifying or you are probably in trouble.

[Finalgenesis]

Originally Posted by rdonj

In my opinion those are more useful for competitive MP games, where provinces are at a minimum and rush deterrent may be more valuable than long term diversity and power, especially if that SC allows you to make a quick land grab on an opponent's territory.

I think I can see this, a SC pretender on Turn 12 when EA Mictlan or Niflehiem is breathing on me be the difference between win or defeat in MP.

For the non-SC pretender, one huge bonus I just couldn't get over is the gem income from site search. Even when using awake rainbow vs sleepy rainbow I tend to amass a lot more misc. gems, which fuels my summon / forging mid-game in a big way. Its like a free 90% akashic record (minus holy and whatever path you skipped) every other turn starting on Turn 1. awake rainbow can have 8-9 sites for you inside of a year by T1 minimum, or if you Really need certain spells to do early research boost.

assuming you get 8 sites and each generate 1 gem to be conservative in Yr1. that can give you a bonus 96 gems from T12-T24, not counting those you get in T1-T12. The income over say 4 years snowballs like crazy just from your Y1 site find alone. Granted at some point your pretender stays home to craft and summon things only it can do, but those 1yr+ of free acashic record is huge. Even when it's home it tend to have a backlog of key summons / craft to occupy it until the end of days.

That doesn't even include the times when I found rare sites that give me -20% conj / Thau / free castles / other amazing bonuses that changed the game for me.

I won't even go into the crafting goodness they do for me, as they are sometimes my sole crafter of critical gear before it is also the one to summon others to do it for her (eg. dwarf hammer until i summon troll, boots of flight.... which I usually can't get anyone else to craft for me until very late in the game with fairy queen, cross-path forge like vine bracelet / crystal coin.etc)

Trading all that for a single SC which I can summon up multiple lesser versions of late game just pains me But I can see this in MP where a SC early game helps deter and expand.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Cyclops is the pretender that comes to mind which can SC early and doesn't need high dominion.

Hhhhmmmm, high dominion on a Cyclops is almost mandatory if you want him to be any use as an early SC (first year). If you try taking Indy's solo with a naked Cyclops without Awe then you'll almost instantly get a dead Cyclops. Even with a Const 0 shield+sword it's no certainty

But then I know you know this already Squirrelloid, which makes your comment seem even weirder to me