Russian Tanks

[Snipey]

Originally Posted by Koh

Back to topic. Any photos of those T-80s in the war? I'd rather see the pictures myself than trust someone saying it's a T-80 in a picture. Wouldn't be the first false identification.

The reason I'm so sceptical is because the formation lists I've seen for Caucasus tend to list the units equipped with T-72s and T-64s. I don't know the Russian policy but the swiftness of their response would indicate that they probably didn't have the time to ferry in troops from other military districts.

- Koh

Well the T-80 was used in the First Chechen War, the Second Chechen War, so it is definitely in the region. Also the source comes from an Ossetian soldier who fought in the war and could have asked the Russians or could have known how the tank looks like.

The Caucasian Region has been the most militarized Russian Region ever since Chechnya's attack on Dagestan, on August 7, 1999. (Is this just me, or is attacking Russia and losing on August 7th a requirement for failed leaders in the Caucasian region?) It even has T-90 tanks, which were kept in reserve during this conflict, in case the US/NATO wanted to escalate. However the T-90s were used with great success in the Dagestan War. From the Moscow Defense Brief, an extremely credible source, (and my absolute favorite on Russian military):

"The use of T-90S tanks in Dagestan deserves mention. A group of these vehicles consisting of 8 to 12 units according to different sources was supposed to be delivered to India. Folªlowing a sharp aggravation of the situation in the Caucaªsus, however, the tanks were transferred to Dagestan. In the Kadari zone one T-90 was hit by seven RPG anti-tank rockets but remained in action. This indicates that with regular equipªment T-90S is the best protected Russian tank, especially if Shtora and Arena defensive protection systems are integrated in it."

Source: http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/3-2002/ac/raowdsmcc/

Your reasons would have been correct, had Russia not already had T-80s in the Caucasian military district (North Caucasus military district). It is Russia's largest, and best equipped military disctrict, and for good reason. It was, until the end of the South Ossetian War, the most volatile military district as well. It might still be the most volatile, but no longer a weakspot.

Wouldn't you want to have your best units in reserve in your most volatile military district? In addition, part of the Spetznatz force was flown in from Moscow. Russia took this war very seriously, they even had Iskander missiles deployed.

The number used was very small, most likely under 20 tanks. Also, since Russia no longer provides NATO with its troop movement information, it's hard to ascertain the overall number that Russia had in the Caucasian Military District, but I can assure you that number is over 20.

[Koh]

Fair enough. I've been probably looking at some outdated OOBs then. I do wonder if the T-90s were a part of a permanent formation in the district or were they reinforcements from elsewhere stationed in Northern Caucasus due to possible hostilities. I was under the impression that the T-90s were currently deployed only in the division stationed near Moscow and in one tank division in Siberia.

[c_of_red]

"This is rapidly returning to "political" stuff that has no place in this forum, which is to discuss the WinSPMBT game."

Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed.
Mao Tse-Tung
Chinese Communist politician (1893 - 1976)

It is impossible to separate the two. It is an American national flaw that Americans always see politics as one thing and war as another. That's OK, so long as the 1st Amendment is in effect, there will be those of us that are willing to use our Constitutionally protected right to express an opinion regarding the fact that War is part of politics and you CANNOT discuss a war game without having a political discussion. It is impossible.
I do thank you for the link. I might even go there and see what is what, although I do post on about 2 dozen sites a day that you would see as political. Everything from HuffyPo to PJM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics

{snipped}
"Politics is a process by which groups of people make decisions. The term is generally applied to behaviour within civil governments, but politics has been observed in all human group interactions, including corporate, academic, and religious institutions. It consists of "social relations involving authority or power"[1] and refers to the regulation of a political unit,[2] and to the methods and tactics used to formulate and apply policy"

Is that what you mean by politics? Are we not a group of people making a decision over OOB's for a scenario involving the recent political conflict between Russia and Georgia, which Russia resolved thru invasion?
Wouldn't any scenarios or battles ( I think this would make an excellent campaign, so long as country training was 'off' with experience level at 50 or 60 ). As such, a discussion on which nations would be involved is part and parcel of any 'future history' scenario.
Plus I don't understand why the management here is so set against these sort of discussions. Yes, they can get heated. SO? I for one don't take them seriously. At least not to the point where I'm lawyering up or loading my shot gun.
In Koh's post he is ignoring the fact that the Russians were preparing for their "spontaneous response" at least 2 months ahead of the invasion.
They didn't move better tanks to the border because they didn't think they needed better tanks. They were correct, weren't they? Georgia has some lousy troops ( Experience 40 or lower)

To be sure you notice and understand;
"but politics has been observed in all human group interactions"

EVERY THREAD ON THIS FORUM IS "POLITICAL"

You are a smart guy, you just haven't taken time to think this through. You have a non-standard definition of "political". How do you expect those of us that know what the word means to guess at what you think it means? ANY and ALL interaction between two or more humans is 'political'. Deleting a thread is a political action.

[DRG]

When we say it's not appropriate for this forum IT'S NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THIS FORUM.

And when we say take it elsewhere then you take it elsewhere. It's not up for debate and we don't need a pretentious little lecture about it.

Don