OT: Some of mankind's toughest questions

[Kamog]

Just a few days ago, I was discussing the purpose of life with a colleague at work. He had recently watched a program on insects and their life cycles, and it was explained that the purpose of life for an insect is only to reproduce. They just have to grow and survive long enough so that they can reproduce, and then their job in life is done and they die. We hope that us humans have more of a purpose to life than just the biological function of propagating the species.

[ZeroAdunn]

The reall question is: Do we have free will?

If you believe in an omnipotent and omniscient god, then no we don't have free will.

If you believe in a purely scientific action reaction, relative forces, and all that mumbo jumbo, then no we don't have free will.

For each of these situations, there can be no true free will. If god is all knowing, we do not truly choose, because the path was already laid out for us when the universe was created. If everything is merely a mathamatical theoram of relationships between components of the universe, then we have no free will, because we cannot change how these things happen, because we ourselves are merely expressions of that equation.

In truth, I think the reality lies somewhere in between. I firmly believe that there is something more to life than a random collection of molecules, and that something is what makes us truly alive. Who knows? I certainly don't, but the reall question is, what is the point in debating it? Nobody can answer it one way or another, because ultimately, no on will know untill they reach the clearing at the end of the path.

[Kamog]

Well, I like to think that we have free will. It certainly seems like we have free will, that we have the power of choice in our thoughts and actions. I don't like the idea that everything is predetermined because then it seems like our lives don't really matter. If everything is predetermined, what's the point of trying to improve one's situation, working towards goals, trying to achieve things? But free will could very well be an illusion, as people like to point out.

I can say, "hey, I can choose whether to pick up this pen in front of me, or choose not to, so I have free will."

Then the other guy could say, "You only think you have a choice, but ultimately, you did the thing that you were supposed to and the free will is an illusion."

Then the related discussion is on whether or not we have souls. If our thoughts are merely chemical reactions in our brains, we don't have free will, because the chemical reactions must follow the laws of biochemistry and physics, and can only go a certain way. It doesn't make sense to say that chemistry follows the exact physical laws everywhere else in the world but not inside brains. Debating whether we have souls or not is hard, just like arguing whether god exists or not, because you can't see or measure it and there's no concrete evidence one way or another.

[Renegade 13]

Kamog said:
Then the related discussion is on whether or not we have souls. If our thoughts are merely chemical reactions in our brains, we don't have free will, because the chemical reactions must follow the laws of biochemistry and physics, and can only go a certain way. It doesn't make sense to say that chemistry follows the exact physical laws everywhere else in the world but not inside brains. Debating whether we have souls or not is hard, just like arguing whether god exists or not, because you can't see or measure it and there's no concrete evidence one way or another.

Well, with many things there is a degree of randomness involved. Chemical reactions are highly ordered and predictable on a macro scale, but on smaller scales, (ie: a single molecular reaction) there is a lot of randomness involved.

Also, if everything was predetermined, why wouldn't that be a good defence in court? I killed that guy but I didn't have a choice. It was all predetermined.

Consciousness is a concept that is very poorly understood. Slap some neurons together, and you don't create a brain or a new individual. The processes are still not understood, but I think current theories have something to do with quantum states to describe why consciousness exists at all.

Some people even believe that consciousness is required for the universe to exist. Otherwise, there would be no observer no one to force the quantum wavefronts, all the possible outcomes, to crystallize into a single reality. Really quite interesting concept.

[Kamog]

OK, I agree there is randomness in chemistry on small scales, but it seems to me that randomness still does not equal free will. Because then our thoughts and actions come from randomness and not from free will. It's like, I made a certain choice just because a molecule in my brain happened to randomly bounce in a certain way and react with another molecule, so it's based on probability and chance, not free will.

[Renegade 13]

I, for one, believe we have free will. Then again, even if we do have free will, random events will always effect our lives in ways we can't predict, avoid or prevent. So in essence, even if we do have free will, randomness also controls our lives to a certain extent.

I really don't have any basis to believe we have free will, no evidence to prove one way or the other. The very nature of the question doesn't allow us to know the true answer. The real question is; does it matter if we do or we don't? After all, it seems to me as though we have free will, so if we don't it sure is well hidden Therefore if it seems like we have free will, but we don't, is it really any different from actually having free will?

[Atrocities]

I have a question for God, why is it that some people always seem to be given the breaks in life. They have a job they love, they are healthy, they look great, they are rich, they have all that they can ever want and nothing bad, bad as in real world, ever seems to happen to them?

Why do I always get all the [censored] bad luck? Why not spread it around to some of these "life is so great" spoiled rotten richie rich types?

Why won't you let me meet a nice women that I can spend the rest of my life with that doesn't weigh 500 pounds, or insane, or out to screw me over? Why do I have to struggle when so many of my ideas have made others millions? WTF God?

No offense Lord, I would just like to know.

[ZeroAdunn]

Haven't you read the bibble AT? God is a dick....

[Jack Simth]

Ah, yes; you get all the [censored] bad luck. Sitting in front of your rather expensive computer, out of the rain, with a full belly, have all the [censored] bad luck. Of course. Because, you know, there aren't, say, children getting molested by their parents, or people getting tossed out on the streets, or starving to death..... you get all the [censored] bad luck. Of course you do. It's not like you're the one without any real-world problems. Roof over your head? Clothes on your back? Food in your belly as needed? Perspective.

The Bible doesn't usually list God's motives, but you might think of looking into One Group's Take on the subject.

My own understanding mostly boils down to "free will". People take actions, and actions have consequences - good, bad, and unintended, for the person who acted, for the person who didn't act, and for those not otherwise involved. When someone chooses to murder, that someone also chooses another to kill. When someone chooses to be indiscriminate in their relations, they choose to run the risks involved. Multiple people get similar ideas all the time - some choose to follow up, and some reap the rewards; others choose not to, and don't. Others enter into, and follow through on, agreements that are more advantageous to one party than the other. Occasionally someone betrays a trust. You refer to "let" - yet the specific criteria kinda implies "force" - be that motives, body type, or other choices; would you marry a robot with no choice but to follow it's programming? Would you want to live in a world where everyone was identical?

The world is as our collective choices shaped it, and of course, God gets the blame. Easy to blame someone you don't really know, and not have to put the face of your neighbors, your friends, your family, and yourself as the causes of your troubles, isn't it?

[Hunpecked]

AT: "Why do I always get all the [censored] bad luck? WTF God?

God: "Atrocities, there's just something about you that pisses me off!"

AT, for what it's worth, we all love you on this board; we just can't show it when God's around...