As A Leader What Would You Do?

[Wenin]

Renegade 13,

I can't believe you are even going to venture into the realm of comparing the relative effects on the planet from nuclear tests to that of a nuclear strike. Where are you getting a SINGLE nuke from?

Iran tosses ONE nuke at Israel.
Israel tosses X nukes at Iran.


Now if you're Iran, would you really only use ONE nuke?


So really it's Y nukes at Israel.


Y + X = A lot of nukes

ASSUMING that Pakistan isn't going to sit idly by.

W nukes at India
Z nukes at Pakistan

Then we have 3 NUKES at the US from North Korea...... OH [censored] now it's on!!!

US Nukes North Kora
US Nukes China for safe measure

China Nukes the US

US Nukes China
UK Nukes China
France Nukes itself


Chain reaction....



The ONLY way MAD works is if EVERYONE at the table knows that EVERYONE dies..... AND THEY ALL HAVE TO CARE.


Does Iran care? Will they always care?

[capnq]

Wenin said:Now if you're Iran, would you really only use ONE nuke?

So really it's Y nukes at Israel.

Y + X = A lot of nukes

I agree here...

ASSUMING that Pakistan isn't going to sit idly by.

W nukes at India
Z nukes at Pakistan

...but this almost seems like a non-sequitur. I can't think of any reason at all that Iran vs. Israel would cause Pakistan to hit India.

Then we have 3 NUKES at the US from North Korea

Only if Israel doesn't have enough nukes to glass Iran, we decide to finish the job, and N. Korea decides it's coming next anyway.

US Nukes North Kora
US Nukes China for safe measure

This would be suicidal; why would we nuke such a large trade partner?

I personally don't believe we would attack China even it it forcibly retook Taiwan.

The ONLY way MAD works is if EVERYONE at the table knows that EVERYONE dies..... AND THEY ALL HAVE TO CARE.

Does Iran care? Will they always care?

The general fear that Iran doesn't care is what's spawning this debate.

I find it ironic that this thread came up on the very same day that I, for the first time, encountered a solo game situation where sun-busters look like my best option.

[PvK]

Atrocities said:
As a leader of a mighty space empire, would you tollorate a smaller religiously zealot lead empire who has sworn to destroy one of your allies, and openly opposes and supports terrorism against your empire, from developing sun destroying weapons?

In other words, what would you do if you were facing an Iran situation in one of your games?

In other words, once again, Atrocities accepts the right-wing US political position which reduces a complex situation to a tribal black-and-white us-versus-them fear-based mantra.

Which is to say, I think that the situation with Iran is really one which the intelligent knowledgeable people are telling us is ripe for negotiation - Iran seems to probably really want us to acknowledge them and promise not to invade them - they don't really want to be at war with the West. Failing to understand that seems to me like plain pandering conceit and/or stupidity on the part of certain Western leaders.

Ideally though, I'd like to see a complete ban on nuclear weapons, and action taken to remove them all from the planet. However the current US administration has been sounding at least as frightening as Al Qaeda recently in terms of threatening to develop new weapons and consider actually using them. People like that ought not to be allowed into positions of power, IMO...

PvK

[Renegade 13]

Wenin said:
Renegade 13,

I can't believe you are even going to venture into the realm of comparing the relative effects on the planet from nuclear tests to that of a nuclear strike. Where are you getting a SINGLE nuke from?

Iran tosses ONE nuke at Israel.
Israel tosses X nukes at Iran.

(etc...)

According to some research I did, the total number of nuclear detonations that have taken place since the development of nuclear weapons has numbered over 2000!

See Wikipedia link

Except from the above link:

The nuclear powers have conducted at least 2,000 nuclear test explosions (numbers are approximated, as some test results have been disputed):

* United States United States: 1,050 tests (involving 1,125 devices,331 atmospheric tests), most at Nevada Test Site and the Pacific Proving Grounds in the Marshall Islands, with ten other tests taking place at various locations in the United States, including Alaska, Colorado, Mississippi, and New Mexico (see nuclear weapons and the United States for details).
* Soviet Union Soviet Union: between 715 and 969 tests, most at Semipalatinsk Test Site and Novaya Zemlya, and a few more at various sites in Russia, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, and Ukraine.
* France France: 210 tests, mostly at Reggane and Ekker in Algeria, and Fangataufa and Moruroa in French Polynesia.
* United Kingdom United Kingdom: 45 tests (21 in Australian territory, including 9 in mainland South Australia at Maralinga and Emu Field, many others in the U.S. as part of joint test series)
* People's Republic of China China: 45 tests (23 atmospheric and 22 underground, all conducted at Lop Nur Nuclear Weapons Test Base, in Malan, Xinjiang)
* India India: between 5 and 6 tests, at Pokhran.
* Pakistan Pakistan: between 3 and 6 tests, at Chagai Hills.

Many of the above tests, before the Partial Test-ban Treaty, were even atmospheric tests (the US has done at least 331 atmospheric nuclear tests), each producing as much fallout and general radioactivity of any bomb that Iran could build. Even considering that you're right, and Israel would bomb Iran right back again. Ok, lets say Iran actually built nukes, and actually lobbed them at Israel. Lets say they built 10 and threw them at Israel, then that Israel threw 30 back. That's 40 nukes in all. 40 nukes would be enough that one country or the other would be a glowing pile of radioactive glass.

You're telling me that 40 nukes would be worse for the world than the over 2000 tests conducted over the past 60 years? Come now, be reasonable.

As for the rest of your arguement, I don't think Pakistan/India, US/NK would get involved. Highly unlikely.

[Wenin]

...but this almost seems like a non-sequitur.

When nukes start flying we can only hope for cool heads to rule.

The Pakistani and Indian militaries are barking dogs, much like Soviet and NATO militaries back in the day. The slightest thing could set those dogs free. A little nuke induced anarchy is just the right thing.


The US can't nuke North Korea without taking on China. If NK nukes us, think the US would sit idly by and not retaliate? Think there wouldn't be thought that NK wouldn't have struck without China's approval? Or even we allow for the HINT of approval to exist.

Anyway... if we nuke NK, I wouldn't be surprised that we'd nuke China.

Hell that was the rule of the day back during the Soviets vs NATO. You nuke one of us, we nuke all of you.

This would be suicidal; why would we nuke such a large trade partner?

If nukes are getting tossed back and forth..... you think US would want China to come out unscathed? I'd place them at fault for their lack of control over their part of the world. They need to snap the leash on NK. It's their dog, if it bites anyone, they're to blame.

[Atrocities]

PvK said:

In other words, once again, Atrocities accepts the right-wing US political position which reduces a complex situation to a tribal black-and-white us-versus-them fear-based mantra.

PvK

I think your back handed slap at me is inapproprate and insinidary. It is designed to provoke me in a debate over US politics. PvK, your entitled to your opinion, but please leave me out of your degrading patranizing comments. Thank you.

If you would have skipped the chance to attack me and would have read my other posts, you would have known that I favor just leaving them alone.

[Renegade 13]

Wenin said:I'd place them at fault for their lack of control over their part of the world. They need to snap the leash on NK.

I find this attitude almost as scary as Iran. "Control over their part of the world"!! You're saying a few countries should have harsh military control over the rest of the world, and that it's their fault if something goes wrong!? This tells me that you think that I, living in Canada, are subject to American control...and this scares me, if this is a prevalent attitude down there...

[Renegade 13]

Actually, I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I don't want people getting offended, and since I'm probably responsible for some of it I'll leave now, and forever keep my peace!

[Atrocities]

YA, might be a good idea to sht this thread down now before it gets turned in to something it was never intended to.