Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)

[Zen]

I didn't ignore it, but I haven't been able to find a happy medium. Blood is one of the few paths of magic with 3 Path Boosters (Brazen Vessel, Armor of Souls, and the Blood Thorn).

The Weapon and Armor portion of the Item Mod is not complete (it is still very much in beta) in order for me to find a happy balance between the Life Drain weapons and their secondary functions).

I might consider doing just that, lowering the damage significantly, this in and of itself might be just what it needs (I was thinking -3) and removing the Nature component to the cost.

So Pocus, thanks for Pretender portion of the series and I am going still looking at the Items portion and it's not near done.

I just gave a half-list of what I was currently working with in the mod to Alenyea if you wanted to try it out and it's not currently released. (Mostly if you have people over there in France who don't like non-site gem income)

As you have been able to see from the Pretender Mod, I go back and forth on a few things trying to figure out a proper balance while taking into consideration the intent and usage of the items.

[Edi]

Zen said:
I didn't ignore it, but I haven't been able to find a happy medium. Blood is one of the few paths of magic with 3 Path Boosters (Brazen Vessel, Armor of Souls, and the Blood Thorn).

Actually, most paths have three boosters. Not counting rings of sorcery and wizardry and unique items, all of the elements have two plus staff of elemental mastery, blood has the three you named, nature has four (thistle mace, moonvine bracelet and Treelord staff, which counts as two boosters even though it is incompatible with thistle mace, and Armor of Twisting Thorns, which boosts both nature and blood). Only astral and death have just two boosters each, but death has a large number of cheap artifact boosters (Sceptre of Dark Regency especially), more than any other path.

Edi

[Zen]

Ahah! Yes, Edi is right (DAMN THE EDITORS!).

But Blood ones are particularly easy to come up with. The Thorn and the Vessel are only 20 Slaves (10 normal gems) and the Armor is 40 Slaves (20 normal gems). It's not too hard to bootstrap up to make these things and then have access to the entire selection of blood because of it's nature.

Like I said (again!) the mod hasn't been released at all, so that means any and all decisions haven't been thoroughly tested enough for me to keep them or adjust them based on the limitations of nations and so on.

I may just end up changing the Damage of Lifedraining weapons so that even if a high strength unit is using them they arn't causing enough lifedrain damage to keep them alive (though out of fatigue).

There are alot of ideas out there and I only want to tackle one at a time. This may open up alot more if/when IW adds a few more modding tools (especially Rate of Attack) for the modding community to try to use.

Back to Pretenders: Anyone have a chance to comment on that?

[Cohen]

As modding commands there should be a lot to be implemented.

Especially for items, and spells.
Adding new magical forgeable items, or spells under certain categories, chosing an already existing animation, or allowing to summon new creatures is a good thing.
Giving all skill range to be modded (I mean giving someone Banefire Shield, or Flaming Weapon, or Astral Shield by default could be nice)
Adding global spellcasting bonus (Like enchantment bonus and such).
Well I could continue with the list but I'd prefer to stop here, not wanting to say a too much stuff that probably I won't never see realized.

[Zen]

Since I overlooked (or perhaps was crazy and neverlooked!) the Shapechanged forms I have rereleased the Mod to 1.6. Find it with the attatchment or here www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptp16.zip

(I'd like to apologize to anyone who was planning on using the mod for a game to test things out and the massive rerelease of Versions. I didn't intend for it to be like this, but I am a slight perfectionist. Again, I'm sorry)

For those starting games that have Dragons in them, or the Serpent King/Smoking Mirror this will be a slight improvement to their shapechanged portions.

Also I have added in the name breaks. I guess Edi wanted that in there so other people could copy the mod better?

I'm sure Edi will have a Readme for it as soon as is convienent.

P.S. I still wouldn't try to use some of the shapechanged forms for combat purposes (like the Jaguar or the Serpent forms) though I had some interesting results when they hit the 'near death' stage in human form and converted over. In particular this change helps out the Jaguar who had terrible MR for some reason (I guess shapechanged Jaguars are none to fond of magic).

[Edi]

Zen said:
Ahah! Yes, Edi is right (DAMN THE EDITORS!).

Well, it's the editor's job to make sure the facts are kept straight, no? And you DID name me as your official editor...

Zen said:
But Blood ones are particularly easy to come up with. The Thorn and the Vessel are only 20 Slaves (10 normal gems) and the Armor is 40 Slaves (20 normal gems). It's not too hard to bootstrap up to make these things and then have access to the entire selection of blood because of it's nature.

This is certainly true. The blood boosters all require just blood magic to produce, while many of the other path boosters require more than one type of magic and often in combinations that are not particularly plentiful.

• Skull of Fire is a death/fire combination, which aside from Machaka, T'ien Chi and Ermor (dusk elders) isn't all that common.
• Moonvine bracelet is astral/nature, which is a bit easier to get, and usually requires either one random pick or indie lizards.
• Bloodstones require the rare earth/blood combo, which is imo the hardest one to get at sufficient levels to make the stones.
• Armor of Twisting Thorns is blood/nature, so availability is usually limited to Pangaea and Mictlan out of the box. It makes for a powerful ritual casting boost, but is in other ways limited (not the least by being cursed).
• Crystal Coin requires the earth/astral (2/2) combination, which I've found to be annoyingly troublesome.
• The Staffs of Elemental Mastery are pretty hard to produce, because they require combinations of opposite elements. T'ien Chi, Arco and Atlantis are almost the only ones who have mages that can produce them out of the box (assuming proper random picks)

Besides blood, this leaves only air, water and death as paths where all boosts are producable without combo paths, and air has the limitation that you need 3 air to produce the first one. Ditto fire, unless you get the death combo.


EDIT: nevermind, you posted an answer to a question while I was typing it.

I'll get working on the readme. I can also comment the pretender mod file for you, if you like, so you can concentrate on the items for a while longer. Unless somebody else has something important to add in the meanwhile, of course.

Edi

[Pocus]

Zen,

Do you plan to make changes to the units cost? We knows that less resources for lighter units (IW belief) is not enough to have them on par - interest wise - with the heavier ones (except in some special situations, there is always exceptions). A slight reduction in gold cost would do some goods, while we wait for new rules for light units (as we dont know if these rules will appears a day).

[Zen]

Pocus said:
Zen,

Do you plan to make changes to the units cost? We knows that less resources for lighter units (IW belief) is not enough to have them on par - interest wise - with the heavier ones (except in some special situations, there is always exceptions). A slight reduction in gold cost would do some goods, while we wait for new rules for light units (as we dont know if these rules will appears a day).

I have thought alot about this, I haven't found a happy place yet for this. I've considered trying a few things with morale and lowering their gold cost in order to make them more attractive as a screening force. I've also considered making them have more AP in order to have them engage the enemy significantly quicker than a main force in order to simulate skirmishing (sort of).

I'd need some devoted mod testers when I release this type of thing because it affects how the entire game is played and not just the selection of choices that you have (with the Pretender Mod and others). And it's a hard thing for me to gauge singly. I would love for there to be a way to make LI attractie and worth their cost for what they do, but it's a tough cookie for anyone (From IW to me) to figure out

[Boron]

Zen said:

I have thought alot about this, I haven't found a happy place yet for this. I've considered trying a few things with morale and lowering their gold cost in order to make them more attractive as a screening force. I've also considered making them have more AP in order to have them engage the enemy significantly quicker than a main force in order to simulate skirmishing (sort of).

I would love a bit more useful national troops too .
I think making all Li like militia Need not eat would be good than the supply problem wouldn't be as severe .
I made a small mod today changing maenads to need not eat cause i think it is thematic and does wonders while not disturbing balance .
The base commanders should have all doubled - tripled normal leadership then that they can use e.g. 100 militia and you have no hidden costs for having to use 3-4 leaders with 200 militia instead of 1 with 30 knights .
Finally reducing the goldcost 3-5 gold for militia and light infantry would do wonders i think .

If there would be a command to make an unit cost e.g. 10 gold but only 0.1 upkeep would be awesome .

[PDF]

Another balance topic : I've experienced in several PBEMs the power of flying armies - usually Caelum and Demon armies totally dominate strategically any landlubber nation.
The only "counter" to fliers is magic transportation, which is way more expensive.

I think that reducing the strat move of fliers - let's say to 2 at most, and 1 for "heavy" troops, be they SG/IG or Gargoyles - will balance things a little.

After all this can even be rationalized by considering that fliers can't fly all day, they aren't usually birds (except hawks, but these ones are not too powerful lol).