Size Does Matter

cascalonginus · #1 May 6th, 2002, 02:10 AM

After some months have finally gotten familiar enough with the ins n outs of SE4. While I am still on v1.49 with the TDM modpack, I suspect there is more that similar than not with the Gold release.

One game I have been running through (single-player) does suggest a certain ideas to be explored. Size of attacking fleet vs vessel size. In the first case, more ships invariably prevail regardless of tech differences of the smaller opponents. As your tech level/ship size progresses, economics ends up effectively capping the number and size of your fleet. This "economic truth" mimics MOO2, etc. I tend to find tho that the AI has no such limitations. I was forced to shut warp points to avoid get swarmed by 30-40-50 ship BC fleets.

At this point, I am struggling to build up my resources to maintain a necessary fleet strength and go back on the offensive.

One big MOO2 tactic was to build a large fleet of small vessels (FFG's, DD's, CL's) and swarm the opponents. The AI has used this with some success. Also is it me or are fighters mostly ineffective (given the eefectiveness of PD)?

Any comments & pointers would be most appreciated.

Suicide Junkie · #2 May 6th, 2002, 02:35 AM

quote:
One big MOO2 tactic was to build a large fleet of small vessels (FFG's, DD's, CL's) and swarm the opponents. The AI has used this with some success. Also is it me or are fighters mostly ineffective (given the eefectiveness of PD)?

The smaller ships do provide some nice defensive bonuses, and can tip the balance.

The biggest advantage of fighters is their lack of maintenance. You can build up huge stockpiles during peacetime, with minimal impact on your budget.
One thing you really need on fighters is shields. At 60 hp / 4kt they are amazingly effective.

Krsqk · #3 May 6th, 2002, 02:46 AM

quote:
Size of attacking fleet vs vessel size. In the first case, more ships invariably prevail regardless of tech differences of the smaller opponents.

If two fleets have equal tech, the larger one will usually win in strategic combat. There are always exceptions; you still have at least a 1% chance to hit and a 1% chance to miss, and enough hits/misses against the odds could happen to alter a battle. In tactical combat against the AI, anything can happen (see SJ's war story about a single dreadnought defeating nine opponents, although with major damage).

quote:
As your tech level/ship size progresses, economics ends up effectively capping the number and size of your fleet.

There is a limit to the number of ships you can support, but this can be greatly stretched. Some ways include:
1) Organic race--ships use more organics and less mineral resources than usual. Since the shortage tends to be in minerals, you can keep more ships fielded at once.
2) Maintenance reduction race characteristic--points spent here directly affect the maintenance cost of your ships.
3) Crystalline race--this trait has a facility which reduces maintenance on all ships in a system.
4) Units/Carriers--units are maintenance-free, and are excellent for warp point defense, where they get to fire first before enemy PD can take them out. Fighters, used en masse or alongside heavy missile fire, can overwhelm PD and extend the firepower of your fleet.

quote:
I tend to find tho that the AI has no such limitations. I was forced to shut warp points to avoid get swarmed by 30-40-50 ship BC fleets.

Did you set the AI to receive a bonus? That can multiply their available resources by up to 5x. Also, many AIs (the TDM races in particular, along with several other excellent AIs) are much more intelligent and aggressive in their ship building and fleet usage.

quote:
At this point, I am struggling to build up my resources to maintain a necessary fleet strength and go back on the offensive.

See above for maintenance reduction. Also, mothball any ships you don't need for defense or construction. Don't worry about infrastructure facilities; concentrate on mineral miners and ship yards.

quote:
One big MOO2 tactic was to build a large fleet of small vessels (FFG's, DD's, CL's) and swarm the opponents. The AI has used this with some success.

This can be a devastating technique, especially against an opponent with no/low levels of Mx tracking. It doesn't matter if one of his ships can blow one of yours out of the water with a single shot if he can't target more than one ship per turn. Meanwhile, you can fire to your heart's content. If an opponent uses this tactic against you, multiplex tracking is a must to research (Combat Support).

quote:
Also is it me or are fighters mostly ineffective (given the eefectiveness of PD)?

There has been much discussion as to whether PD is too strong. I believe the Proportions mod by PvK and Pirates&Nomads by SuicideJunkie have made changes to help this. One fix might be to lower the 70% to-hit bonus of PD. You could also increase the size (one PD=20kt; one CSM=50kt) or fire rate of PD, or make separate forms of PD which can only target missiles or fighters.

quote:
Any comments & pointers would be most appreciated.

Hope this helps.

Derek · #4 May 6th, 2002, 02:59 AM

quote:

There has been much discussion as to whether PD is too strong. I believe the Proportions mod by PvK and Pirates&Nomads by SuicideJunkie have made changes to help this. One fix might be to lower the 70% to-hit bonus of PD. You could also increase the size (one PD=20kt; one CSM=50kt) or fire rate of PD, or make separate forms of PD which can only target missiles or fighters.

My solution to Point Defense, which has been incorporated into the DevNull Mod (somewhat changed) is External Mount Capital Missiles.

These missiles are the same as the regular Capital Missiles, but they take 10 kt of hull space as opposed to 50 kT. However, they can only fire once per combat. They are mounted externally on the ship, and must be replaced outside of combat. They still take up some room (10kT) as the reloads must be stored somewhere.

Anyways, the point is to use them in one initial large barrage that will overload any normal point defense. Once this barrage is done, hopefully, the enemy ships will be wounded enough, or enough of them destroyed, that the reduced point defense capability is not large enough to handle a normal missile barrage.

This was shamelessly stolen by me from D. Weber's Starfire game system (which was, ironically, one of the inspirations for SEIV), and adopted into the Devnull Mod. Currently, I am working on a mod which takes the economic model of Proportions, many of the techs beyond the external mount missiles, and also Space Monsters from the Current Devnull mod, along with quasi Newtonian propulsion similiar to that of P&N, and a number of minor ideas stolen from many, many other mods.

Derek

cascalonginus · #5 May 6th, 2002, 04:24 AM

David Weber's Harrington series seems very relevant here as well. specifically the emphasis on size vs speed being inversely proportional. The allocation of weapons & weapons mixes is instructive there as well. It wouuld be interesting to see if one could mod weapons pods, etc.

DirectorTsaarx · #6 May 6th, 2002, 04:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Krsqk:
<snip>
There has been much discussion as to whether PD is too strong. I believe the Proportions mod by PvK and Pirates&Nomads by SuicideJunkie have made changes to help this. One fix might be to lower the 70% to-hit bonus of PD. You could also increase the size (one PD=20kt; one CSM=50kt) or fire rate of PD, or make separate forms of PD which can only target missiles or fighters.
<snip>

I like the idea of separate PD classes to defend against seekers & fighters. Should (can?) there be separate types of PD to target satellites & drones?

I guess the only problem would be getting the AI to use the new PD components effectively.

BTW - in my current game, I really discovered the usefulness of seekers (and point-defense); the Toltayans were my closest neighbor, and their ships really load up on seekers. It was a little disconcerting to see each ship launch 8-10 plasma torps at my fleet, especially since I hadn't gotten around to building my usual dedicated point-defense support ships. So, as usual, the answer to point defense is to launch more targets than the enemy can successfully hit...

geoschmo · #7 May 6th, 2002, 04:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cascalonginus:
Size of attacking fleet vs vessel size. In the first case, more ships invariably prevail regardless of tech differences of the smaller opponents.

Concentrate your reseach on four areas. PDC (to eliminate the enenmy missles/fighters), combat support (ECM), armor (Stealth and scattering armor have even more defensive bonuses), and sensors (Combat sensors make your direct fire weapons more accurate).

Once you have a decisive advantage in these techs, you will find that your smaller fleet of smaller ships is cutting through the enemies larger fleets of larger ships like butter, even if they have better weapons and shields. Do this and you will be back here in two weeks asking why the AI is so easy and how do you make the game more of a challange.

Geoschmo

[ 06 May 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Sinapus · #8 May 6th, 2002, 05:23 PM

On point-defense... I've noticed something odd on the latest Gold Versions. It seems like point-defense is destroying only one missile per shot. I don't know if this is because damage no longer overlaps when you hit a group of seekers or something else. I haven't had the chance to test the theory in the simulator yet.

Size-wise, I tend to make a swarm of destroyer-hulled ships combined with some bigger ships. But then I play tactical combat, so I can maneuver the ships more effectively.

[ 06 May 2002: Message edited by: Sinapus ]

Captain Kwok · #9 May 6th, 2002, 05:36 PM

quote:
On point-defense... I've noticed something odd on the latest Gold Versions. It seems like point-defense is destroying only one missile per shot. I don't know if this is because damage no longer overlaps when you hit a group of seekers or something else. I haven't had the chance to test the theory in the simulator yet.

It seems that way because point-defense power is about equal to missile damage resistance. They are each around 50 or so hit points near their max tech level.

I'm fairly certain that missile damage carries over...

Cyrien · #10 May 6th, 2002, 06:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cascalonginus:

Size of attacking fleet vs vessel size. In the first case, more ships invariably prevail regardless of tech differences of the smaller opponents.
---
Any comments & pointers would be most appreciated.

Not true!

Take this true to life example
______
He had
Battle Cruisers (40-50) and Cruisers (10-20) with light Carriers (I think) (5-10). He had no support ships in this fleet.

His ships were a mixed lot. Combined arms theory maybe?

BCs had either APB max tech, PPB max tech, or Null Space level 2 or 3 all with best mount. 1 or 2 max tech not-phased shields. max tech ecm, combat sensors. no armor. I don't really know about exp level but I would guess it was low. Something in my head says so (listen to the voice...) 2nd best engines +1 moves trait bonus. 3 or 4 pd per ship (I wasn't using fighters or missiles so this was a waste against me, though the AI was missile heavy). He used bridge with crew quarters, life support. Had no racial advantages in combat/defense.
EDIT: He also had a few with incinerator 2 or 3 beams.

The CRs were missile ships level 3 or 4 CSM. They also had minesweepers on them. But mostly missiles.

The carriers were nothing but launch bays and cargo space. Took 4 or 5 turns for him to launch all the fighters from em. Launched em in Groups of 10 with a little leftover for a smaller group each turn.
The fighters themselves were small with mini APBs no shielding, 5 or 6 engines second best type.

I don't know what his battle strategy was. But his beam ships seemed to keep at a distance (YAY) his missile ships were way out at extreme range. His carriers launched and ran for the corners and his fighters tried for point blank. All broke formation.
______
I had
BattleCruisers (15-25). That is it, not multiple designs. A single ship design that hopefully had everything it needed as long as it remained in a system with a star.

I was using Meson BLasters with the largest mount available max tech. 1 Max tech phased shield. Max PD two per ship. Best engine in the game. 1 max tech shield regenerator. scatter + stealth armor. 1 minesweeper. 3 or 4 max tech solar panels. 1 max tech combat sensor + ecm + Multitrackx4.
My ships and fleet were elite exp with a 5% racial trait defensive bonus and advanced engine for +1 moves. Maybe one or two other things that I don't remember. Oh. Master Computer max tech.

My strategy was: has weapons, nearest, strongest, fastest
break formation
fire until no weapons left
max weapons range
_________

End result
He loses every single Last ship in a single (maybe two) combat engagements. I lose... half the shields on two of my ships with a little shielding damage on a few others. Not a single shot fired breached my shielding. The Null Space weapons got off a few shots but every Last one of them missed. The fighters were decimated by PD. The missiles were either A> Outrun or B> decimated by PD.

This battle took place not by my wish (I thought I would lose) I knew his fleet was out there but I knew not where. I warped through a warp point to help an AI ally out with my mobile fleet and the enemy was on the other side. Thus both our fleets started in close proximity. He had more ships than his strategy allowed and thus about half of them were scattered all over the combat field in seemingly chaotic array. Both of us were using double wall close formation.

My conclusion from this is. It doesn't matter how many the enemy is if he can't hit you and you can hit him.

Learn well from the mistakes of others grasshopper.

[ 06 May 2002: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

[ 06 May 2002: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

[ 06 May 2002: Message edited by: Cyrien ]