obat 55 Albania Hetzer TD

[zastava128]

I've found out that in September 1946 Yugoslavia delivered 21 ex-German armoured vehicles to Albania, at least 10 of which were Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzers.

This unit can be copied from obat 38 (Hungary), unit 28.

Unfortunately there is no information on the other vehicles.

There is also no information on how long they stayed in service, though if it helps Yugoslavia kept theirs until December 1952.

source: Bojan Dimitrijevic, Modernizacija i intervencija: Jugoslavenske oklopne jedinice 1945-2006, Belgrade 2010

I've also found some stuff for Yugoslavia, I'll post that when I'm done checking if it's already in the OOB.

[DRG]

Well, if I make them 1/46-12/49 then can start the Assault Gun Pl in 1946 instead of 1950 when the SU-100's show up

Don

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by DRG

Well, if I make them 1/46-12/49 then can start the Assault Gun Pl in 1946 instead of 1950 when the SU-100's show up

Don

Sounds good. It would even make sense, since the Yugoslav military advisers were withdrawn around that time, due to Yugoslavia leaving the East Bloc.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Just FYI here. Saw the Thread but, missed the boat as things came up, about it at the start, where it went and type at the bottom couple of pages. Might be useful to someone as I'm trying to "clean house" a little. From a German source...
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/jagdpanzer-38t-hetzer.htm

Regards,
Pat

[zastava128]

I've found out more about the shipment mentioned in the OP. I know you have tons of work to do, but I just wanted to wrap this up before the next update so as not to open another topic next year.

Basically there's two versions of what the Yugoslav assistance in 1946 consisted of. One source says 21 tanks, the other says 50. Neither stands out as more trustworthy IMO.

The source in the OP only mentions Hetzers, the other one mentions the following tanks:
L6/40
Hotchkiss H39
Stug III (unknown model, but Yugoslavia had F and G)

The only visual confirmation I've found is of the L6/40:
http://www.traveladventures.org/cont...-castle13.html

I doubt we'll find out the exact vehicles delivered any time soon, so it's up to you to decide what's trustworthy. Personally I think you might as well put them all in - after all, in the current OOB Albania has no armour whatsoever until 1948.

So in addition to the Assault Gun Pl you mentioned earlier, you could extend the Albanian Tank/Tank Platoon formations back to 1/46, and add the L6/40 and H39 for the 1/46-12/47 period (since the T-34 becomes available in 1/48).

[DRG]

Does this mean we're going to have a rush on people playing Albania in 1947 ?

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

This might help...
The FIAT 3000 prewar active service.
Only a few FIAT 3000 model 21, due to their moderate price, were sold abroad. They were taken in account by the Royal Albanian army, and the Latvian army. Some were also part of the puppet government of Abyssinia (Ethiopia). Their first and most well-known use was during the conquest of Ethiopia: After the first Italo-Ethiopian war in 1927, which ended with the treaty of 1928 defining the definitive borders between Italian Somaliland and the Ethiopian empire. Facing no resistance from the leagues of nation, the Italian colonial army built the Welwel fort in 1930, encroached well inside the Ethiopian territory and beyond the 21 leagues border limitation. After several patrol incidents and official Ethiopian protests, a clash occurred in december 1934, which led to a full-scale war. This invasion was supported by nearly all available Model 21, and a few model 30, which proved successful since the Ethiopian army lacked any form of armor or efficient anti-tank weapons. Ironically, most of the 595 tanks fielded by the Italians were CV31-33 tankettes, which were opposed to the three Fiat 3000 model 21 previously sold to the Ethiopian government, and a handful of hastily-built Ford-based Armoured-cars. Three other Fiat 3000 were sold to the Hungarian government in 1936, which fought during the Slovak–Hungarian War, in march-april 1939.

This was the last version of the FIAT 3000 series.
The L5/21 and L5/30 in world war two.
When world war two broke out, most of the FIAT 3000 still in reserve, which had been used in training units, were reactivated in active units, due to Italian lack of tanks for upcoming operations in June 1940. If most were based overseas, in Colonial duty in Eritrea, Libya, Abyssinia and Somaliland, some were retained in local defence units, in Southern Italy and Sicily. At this moment, all FIAT 3000 had been renamed FIAT L5/21 and FIAT L5/30 according to the new Regio Esercito nomenclature. They were hopelessly outdated, but during the east-african campaign of 1941, they stood their ground against mostly third-rate British models (like the British Mk.I to VI light tanks), and Anzac armoured-cars. Two units equipped with FIAT 3000 also fought during the Albanian campaign, but proved totally inefficient in Greece. Their last memorable action occurred during the landing at Gela, part of the allied operation in Sicily, in July 1943, when two units equipped with FIAT L5/30 operated as mobile gun positions around the bridgehead... None is known to have survived to this day.

On the FIAT L6/40 this is what I found as the most informative...
Albanian use seems questionable for this type. The refs are consistent as to where this tank was used. A Russian tank museum has an example of one captured in Stalingrad which is the only known battle to have occurred between the Russians and Italians per that site.
http://www.war44.com/italian-motoris...ank-print.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28095414@N02/4386654000/

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Ran out of time to edit...was adding that the FIAT L6/40 in the Albanian museum (Previous post above.) might have been captured by partisans. Yugoslavia did capture a handful of them. This tank had no export customers. See the second pic of the below ref. for perspective.
http://www.lonesentry.com/panzer/may...ro-armato.html
http://weaponsandwarfare.com/?p=4342
http://ww2db.com/vehicle_spec.php?q=464

About HETZER seems Albania might have got 10 HETZET 38(T) models sometime in 1947. It was a later version that had a better engine in it. Info based on a blog of tank guys who travel to and discuss the tanks in the various museums they visit. Tried the SIPRA website but it only goes back to 1950.

Regards,
Pat

[Mobhack]

If tanks were rarer than hens teeth at that time - then there need be no addition to the AI pick list - which is for stuff you might actually meet. The things are so unusual that someone playing the AI does not want to see these fleet bought.

All that is needed is a formation for the human player of Albania to use if he chooses.

cheers
Andy

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by DRG

Does this mean we're going to have a rush on people playing Albania in 1947 ?

Nah, it's the 700,000 bunkers that draw the players to Albania.

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

Ran out of time to edit...was adding that the FIAT L6/40 in the Albanian museum (Previous post above.) might have been captured by partisans. Yugoslavia did capture a handful of them. This tank had no export customers. See the second pic of the below ref. for perspective.
http://www.lonesentry.com/panzer/may...ro-armato.html
http://weaponsandwarfare.com/?p=4342
http://ww2db.com/vehicle_spec.php?q=464

Yugoslavia actually had more than just a few - remember that quite a few were captured from the surrendering German, Croat and RSI forces in May 1945 (the Yugoslav Army got as far as Trieste and southern Austria, so they captured a substantial amount of gear).

Albanian partisans, from what I've seen (mostly digging through the "Axis History" site/forum, did not have any tanks whatsoever - seems they simply didn't have anyone who could drive them... Anyway, it seems all the tanks Albania had in the 1946-48 period originated from Yugoslavia.

The pre-WW2 Albanian Royal Army kit doesn't concern WinSPMBT, but in case you're curious: they had the Fiat 3000s you mentioned - exactly two from what I could find, plus six CV-33s and 8 armoured cars (mostly Lancia IZM). All were destroyed or captured by the Italians in 1939.

Originally Posted by Mobhack

If tanks were rarer than hens teeth at that time - then there need be no addition to the AI pick list - which is for stuff you might actually meet. The things are so unusual that someone playing the AI does not want to see these fleet bought.

All that is needed is a formation for the human player of Albania to use if he chooses.

cheers
Andy

Yeah I agree with this. And besides, the human player can buy the tanks for his AI opponent if he really wants to fight them.