Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)

[DeadlyShoe]

I'm playing a SP game on a No Independents RanDomized map. I'm Eriu, and there doesn't seem to be a lot I can do about the Impossible Abysian's salamander spam backed by fire evocations. My planned strategy focused on Fog Warriors and Mass Protection, but salamanders counter both handily; I need Fog Warriors to even have a ghost of a chance in most fights. Since it's NI, the Abysians are wholly focused on their national troops, including salamanders; any given army is about 1/3 fire-breathing SOBs.

I tried running the game again using Baalz strategy guide, running an E9N4 Lord of the Forests and using lots of Sidhe lords... Unfortunately it didn't work very well. I experienced great initial success before the salamanders started appearing in numbers and I proceeded to lose most of the Sidhe Lords in about 3 turns flat, even with Resist Elements. My nature income was unfortunately extremely poor (only +5 even with 12 provinces haruspex'd) so I have great difficulty replacing any equipped Lords. Next I tried using Shishis, but after much scratching of my head I couldn't figure out any worthwhile/forgeable equipment for them, as I had been similarly unlucky with finding Earth sites. So I just stuck Dancing Tridents on them... Sadly, they fared only little better than the Sidhe Lords.

I've also tried simply massing Javelins and Slingers, as the Salamanders aren't very tough for their cost. Unfortunately, while this tended to wound a great number of them, it proved in no way a workable counter with Fire mages throwing out Fire Clouds and the like.

I'm rather short of ideas unfortunately; the only thing I can think of is taking a Fountain of Blood as a pretender and producing demon troops, or focusing on battlefield evocations instead of what I viewed as a thematic means of playing Eriu (focusing on illusion magic rather than thunderstrike spam).

P.s. I'm playing with my own mod that reduces the cost of most troops (less so for Sacreds and other high end troops like Salamanders).

[13lackGu4rd]

I really don't understand your problem with Sidhe Lords. just forge them cheap fire resistance gear, say fire plate and burning pearl, and you're good to go. I guess you'll need fire on your pretender if you're using a no indies mod, so just get a rainbow like Eriu should get anyway. a few Sidhe Lords with frost band+vine shield(or whatever)+your fire resistance gear(to make them totally immune) and you're set.

[thejeff]

Of course with a rainbow, you won't have E9Nx so you'll need armor and regen/reinvig gear as well, making the thugs much less cost-effective.

[DeadlyShoe]

Yeah. I don't see a practical method beyond getting Fire on the pretender and hoping to get enougH Fire economy going to forestall a total loss to Salamanders. But I tried Eriu without the Earth Bless and found that the reinvigoration was almost mandatory - I don't like to send thugs alone even against PD, but even in pairs and threes they were racking up huge fatigue. Getting the reinvigoration necklace is another 10 nature gems which doubles the effective gem cost of the thugs (since they're limited by nature gems for the shields.)

I guess I could go balls-out and forget the shield, just spam lots of Sidhe Lords with frost brands ala Storm Generals.

P.S. Is there any reason that Vanheim can't do the exact same strategy as Eriu with its Vanjarls? They are very similar units, and might even pull it off better (shields of the accursed?)

[13lackGu4rd]

master druid with E9N4F4 is very doable, can also add a few more paths. you don't need him awake either, though it will certainly help your gem income(especially fire). dormant will also be fine, just not imprisoned. also, speaking of Salamanders and Abysia in general, take C3 scales if you foresee them to be a problem, it will help a lot as long as you're fighting in your dominion instead of his. besides, even with only E4/6 or so you can still use Sidhe Lords as thugs, just take a few more than otherwise and you'll be fine even with a bit of fatigue.

[thejeff]

IIRC, in Baalz's original design it was the the Sidhe Lord's N, giving them Barkskin that let them go with just Brand/Shield. Without that, or without the E9 Mistform popped too easily. Vanjarls have blood, which is a lot less use for low end thugging.
Of course, against Abysia, Barkskin doesn't help.

[13lackGu4rd]

well, since you're most likely adding a fire plate to get fire immunity, I really fail to see the need for Barskin or whatever. also, if you insist on E9 you can still get it on a Master Druid rainbow, on an enchantress too if you also want higher A+S instead of higher N.

no idea what Vanjarls have to do with anything but blood is a bad path for blood, as blood magic doesn't have any useful self buffs beyond blood vengeance which requires blood 9, and either way all the blood buffs cost 100 fatigue.

[Calahan]

I'm surprised nobody has suggested Rain yet, which is a nice spell for hurting Abysia if they are relying on anything to do with fire.

It's only Evo 2 and W2 requirements (1 gem), so 25% of your Bean Sidhe's can cast it. And it both doubles the fatigue for all fire spells, and helps cool those heat aura's down a bit.

If you can get to Const 6, then you can forge Water Bracelets (or maybe take a minor W4 bless and get Water Robes at Const4) which allows your Bean Sidhe's to cast both Grip of Winter in battles, and cast the remote spell Wolven Winter, both of which will hurt Abysia a lot. And cold is double hurt for those salamanders, as they have heat power that boosts stats in hot provinces, but that reverses in cold ones.

(also, a frost brand + elemental fortitude will make your thugs 100%CR, and so can ignore the effects of Grip of Winter, and the +2 fatigue penalty for fighting in a Cold 3 province if you've cast a few Wolven Winters)

[thejeff]

I was responding to the question about Vanjarls using the same strategy.

For fighting Abysia, you'll want FR, which probably means fire plate, rendering Barkskin uneeded. I was speaking more generally. The advantage of Sidhe Lords is that they can be quite effective with minimal gear if they've got the full E9Nx bless. As you put more gear on them they become more of an investment and you can field fewer of them. Without the bless, they'll need armor + reinvig + regen even when you're not fighting Abysia, which means you won't be able to take full advantage of them.

The other thing I see is that if you're relying on your pretender for FR gear, you're only going to get 1 FR thug/turn. I'd be more tempted to use at least some Tuatha and kit them out more fully. You're investing more gems into them. Go all the way and try to keep them alive.

The other thing to remember about Sidhe Lords is they really shine as raiders, not against armies with mage support. Send the standard ones, without 100%FR, into his backfield. Take lightly defended provinces and vanish. Fight his main armies with the Tuatha and troops and lightning. Cut his income with Sidhe raiders, until he can't replace his losses.

That's just theory. I don't really know how the Sidhe fare against Abysian PD. It may not work at all, but I think it fits their purpose better.

[krpeters]

I'm surprised slingers aren't able to do enough damage. Have you tried screening them with some infantry to soak up the evocs while you chew up the salamanders?