Killing Groups

Lt. Ketch · #1 March 11th, 2009, 04:32 PM

I've been bouncing this idea around my head for while and was curious if anybody and any information on historial groups that fit this discription, or what would make up a good group.

The idea is basicly a mobile combined arms group roughly the size of a company or smaller designed to move quickly about the battlefield wither in flanking manuevers or to support a larger assult group. It would be an indpendent group from the rest of the battalion and would incorperate tanks, mech infantry and SP Artillary.

My first thought was of having:
HQ
2 AFV sections (Fast moving MBTs, or well armered light tanks)
1 platoon infantry with transport (perferribly HT or APC)
1 section of scout units (AC or scouts with transport)
1 section SP Artillary (SP mortars or ~100mm i.e. Priest/Wespe)
The commander of the of the group could also double as a AO for the SP Artillary

Any thoughts, or am I just over thinking combined arms?

Cross · #2 March 11th, 2009, 05:01 PM

Sounds like you have in mind an ad-hoc mechanized company for offensive purposes?

I get the impression the Germans put together ad-hoc units as mobile 'fire brigades'. I think typically they were battalion sized (the 'brigade' wasn't a reference to the size) and they were probably used more often in a defensive role, to plug gaps, rather than an offensive role. But I could be wrong about this, so if anyone knows their history...

As a wargamer, I lean towards the realism side of things, but I'm all for experimenting with different tactics, strategies and forces.

A WWII saying went something like 'Organization is the enemy of improvisation'.

You may want to consider a company sized mobile reserve. Which is only a slight change of role. It would be held back until the battle has started to develop; then it can be used to exploit a success or bail out a company that is floundering.

cheers,
Cross

Marek_Tucan · #3 March 11th, 2009, 05:04 PM

With the arty element I would say definitely... Thinking about the US...
Armor Inf Co that traded one of its armor Inf Plt for Light Tank Plt (or Tank Destroyer with Hellcats). Heaviest arty 60mm mtr.

Imp · #4 March 12th, 2009, 02:45 AM

From a historical point of view from what I can tell this sort of formation would have indeed been possible but as Cross & Marek point out. Most likely to be used by US as had abundant transport. Germans used as Cross said more on the defence to exploit a breakout or act as a roving kill force behind the main line. However the Germans would tend to use the halftracks only if they really had to or just as transport to the area. They never had enough so losing your ride meant you were in for a lot of walking probably carrying equipment.

Zinegata · #5 March 13th, 2009, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lt. Ketch

I've been bouncing this idea around my head for while and was curious if anybody and any information on historial groups that fit this discription, or what would make up a good group.

The idea is basicly a mobile combined arms group roughly the size of a company or smaller designed to move quickly about the battlefield wither in flanking manuevers or to support a larger assult group. It would be an indpendent group from the rest of the battalion and would incorperate tanks, mech infantry and SP Artillary.

My first thought was of having:
HQ
2 AFV sections (Fast moving MBTs, or well armered light tanks)
1 platoon infantry with transport (perferribly HT or APC)
1 section of scout units (AC or scouts with transport)
1 section SP Artillary (SP mortars or ~100mm i.e. Priest/Wespe)
The commander of the of the group could also double as a AO for the SP Artillary

Any thoughts, or am I just over thinking combined arms?

I generally organize my battalion into companies that have a platoon of tanks (3-4 tanks), a platoon of mechanized infantry (3-4 infantry), and a platoon of heavy weapons (usually 1 MG, 1 mortar, 1 anti-tank gun).

This group can usually take on a much larger force as long as they stay on the defensive, though in a pinch they can assault positions held by one or two platoons.

In real life though these platoons will usually come from different companies or even battalions.

Lt. Ketch · #6 March 13th, 2009, 06:18 PM

Thank you for the imput. I must confess that I saw the defensive abilities and advantages of a force make up like this, but simply forgot to mention them in my post. I think that a unit like this would be a lot better on the defencive than offensive, like many of you have mentioned.

Shifting gears then, how do most people "launch an assault?" What I would love to do is to scout out the area, blow the ever-loving-tar out of the line with artillary (I follow the Russian doctrine in many ways), and then exploit the gap with highly mobile units. What has been happening lately is that I creep up on foot until I blunder into the enemy. Spend three turns waiting for my artillary to come in and then try to sprint through an gap made with a bunch of leg crunchies, all the while praying that I got the ATGs with my artillary. I wasn't very good at having a reserve. My current battle, however, is an advance and I am taking great pleasure that I have a highly mobile reserve (in reserve) to exploit the gaps that are going to be made. I'm looking forward to working on this tactic and improving my skills.

Is this the way most people do it? What kind of make up does your assualting forces have and how do you go about "un"digging your enemy?

Imp · #7 March 13th, 2009, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Shifting gears then, how do most people "launch an assault?"

Err it depends on the country hence equipment terrain vision disposition of enemy forces if you are playing as an infantry mech or armoured force so about 20 diffrent ways.

Quote:

exploit the gap with highly mobile units

Besides it sounds like you are playing the wrong game was done to a small extent in WW2 but more often than not the dangerous way as in armour only outrunning or not even attempting to take infantry with them which is why it was employed more on the defence behind your main lines. That way you did not run into an infantry ambush. Generalising but fast mobile strike forces are a MBT thing as they have the vehicles to do it good radios etc etc.

Cross · #8 March 13th, 2009, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lt. Ketch

What has been happening lately is that I creep up on foot until I blunder into the enemy. Spend three turns waiting for my artillary to come in

If your moving forward trying to find the enemies defenses, plot your artillery just ahead of your point troops. This artillery doesn't actually have to be firing rounds, just continue to creep your plots forward until you make contact. Then when you 'blunder into the enemy', you will only have to wait one turn for your artillery.

Lt. Ketch · #9 March 16th, 2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cross

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lt. Ketch

What has been happening lately is that I creep up on foot until I blunder into the enemy. Spend three turns waiting for my artillary to come in

If your moving forward trying to find the enemies defenses, plot your artillery just ahead of your point troops. This artillery doesn't actually have to be firing rounds, just continue to creep your plots forward until you make contact. Then when you 'blunder into the enemy', you will only have to wait one turn for your artillery.

Cross, thank you for saying it outright. I've seen this advisor a dozen different ways, but didn't get how it was suppost to work. Thank you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imp

Besides it sounds like you are playing the wrong game ... Generalising but fast mobile strike forces are a MBT thing as they have the vehicles to do it good radios etc etc.

I so need to brush up on my history (somewhat embarassing for someone who graduated in it), not to mention my tactics. I've got both WW2 and MBT and occasionally try MBT (I'd love to do a Russian/Afganistan campaign) but I think you have successfully pointed out my problem. Well, one of them at least. I keep on trying modern tactics with WW2 kit and expecting WW2 like encounters when I play with mordern kit. It doesn't help that I always try to play on a <100 hex map with MBT which, as I've come to realize, is why I can never flank anything. Thanks for the observation. Let's see if I can't do a little better in this next fight.....

Imp · #10 March 16th, 2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

I keep on trying modern tactics with WW2 kit and expecting WW2 like encounters when I play with mordern kit.

I am not saying they don't work but full credit to the game it is harder to be effective with old gear due to a few factors like speed & radios. As the AI buys a more regular force it tends to be infantry heavy so you face a lot of them to try & out manouver.
Remember the motorcar was still quite new even supposedly well equiped armies mainly walked or used mules or if lucky trucks to carry the equipment.
From books I have read the norm for example for a German Armoured unit on the Eatern front so a well equiped in vehicles formation. According to there Commanders they normally only had 2/3rds of there mobile force available at any one time the rest were in R&R due to damage or breakdown. So commiting transport vehicles to the front line was generally avoided there worth was deemed far more effective moving men & equipment so they were as "fresh" as possible for the next battle rather than having just walked carrying equipment.
Also over time units often became a real mix of equipment as replacement vehicles tended to be whatever had come of the production line & made it to the front.