AI bug with conquered planets/captured ships

[Master Belisarius]

For my next Version to the Aquilaeian Empire AI, I'm working with an idea that Atraikus used in their innovative and cool AI for the Orks: attempt that the AI could take over planets, using standard ships as Troop Transport, instead the slow and big Transports.

I wanted to design a Troop Transport, that could transport a short number of troops (the idea was take over enemy's colonies not very populated), but also could work as fuel ship and repair ship.
The idea worked fairly well (well, sometimes the AI never joined a Troop Transport to any fleet... but very often, yes).
The Aquilaeian AI conquered with success, several enemy's colonies, and also their fleets had a more wide range to attack far planets.... but (always exist a but!), here is the bug:

The AI never changed the conquered colony, under any Minister control, then, never built anything into their new planet.

I know a similar problem, when enemy's captured using Intel projects: the AI can't use the new ships, because are not under any Minister control.

I sent those reports to MM.

[Rollo]

Yes, I have found out the same thing. I am currently at the task of making a Space Viking AI for the shipset dogscoff is doing. I want to include boarding and capture planets. The Vikings successfully boarded a Colony Ship full of methane breathers. A great prize for rock dwelling oxy breathers. Too bad the ship was just sitting in space doing nothing. When I turned over AI control manually, it was still doing nothing. Probably it couldn't handle the fact of having a Gas Colony Ship, when they hadn't the tech, yet. It would really be great, if the AI would analyse captured ships with any unknown tech (except racial tech). With warships it worked okay, after turning them over to the AI manually they were included into a fleet.

Master Belisarius, I have one question for you: When testing your AI, did you play as a human player with full AI on? I did that. Or did you have it play as a coumputer player and checked on it from time to time? I was going to try that today and hoping that a "true computer AI" would hand over captured items to the ministers. BTW, where can I find that Ork AI by Atraikus? I would like to have a look at it. I had the same idea of using warships with a few cargo spaces for troop transports, because my regular troop transports were not included into my fleets up to now.

Thank you,
Rollo

[Atraikius]

Master Belisarius - How long did you wait for them to start building on the planet? I know it took a while before they did anything, but I did see the Orks eventually fill up the facilities and start using thier captured planets - they never did use the pop minister to move colonists around to planets of breathable atmospheres.

The Ork AI was on a ship modding discussion thread a while back. Almost done with them though, just doing the final touches to the pictures - should be posting them on monday at the latest.

[Master Belisarius]

Rollon: "I have one question for you: When testing your AI, did you play as a human player with full AI on?"

I did both tests. First I was playing as human player with AI on. But after see the problem, I have reloaded the game some turns before take over the planet, and changed the race from human with AI on, to 100% AI race. After several turns, I have changed the AI to human control... and the planet was conquered again, and again has not new buildings and was not under Minister control.

About the Orks, I was using http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbup...ikius/orks.ZIP but you should ask to Atraikius if exist a more new Version released.

Atraikius: I was waiting during 10 turns, and nothing changed. The thing that make me believe that this is a bug, is the fact that the colony was not under Minister control (have not the "face").

Dogscoff: yea, would be great if the AI could analyze captured ships... but I'm not so ambitious! I want that at least, the AI could use the captured stuff.

[Baron Munchausen]

Don't forget that the technology has to be in the AI_DesignCreation or AI_Construction_Facilities file in order to be used! So, it's really not to the AI's advantage to analyze anything and everything it acquires. It might just lose the use of the ship and still not be able to apply the technology! If you start putting in designs to handle any and every technology it might acquire then weird things could begin to happen. What if it gets level 1 Phased polaron beams? If it's not designed to research them and doesn't acquire any further levels then it'll keep building these wimpy ships with level 1 phased polaron while other races research plain old A-P beam to level 12 and toast those ships from a distance. So there probably need to be some major changes in the AI to make it more 'adaptable' before it should be analyzing things. Maybe it needs to check if the techs on the ship are in its normal research path? If they would normally be researched then it would be worthwhile for the AI to analyze the ship.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 02 August 2001).]

[dogscoff]

QUOTE:
It would really be great, if the AI would analyse captured ships with any unknown tech (except racial tech).
/QUOTE

I imagine this would be fairly easy for MM to implement - the game engine can already assess whether a ship is worth analysing or not. (the moderate/ major/ none resarch potential in the recycle screen) It would just be a matter of performing this test as soon as a ship is acquired by th AI, and then sending to a spaceyard for analysis if appropriate.

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[Atraikius]

Master Belisarius - Do you know if the AI had switched to a different state in that time - I've noticed that some parts of the AI are dependent on the AI state for how they act, and that it seems like the minister changes are only re-evaluated when the state changes.

Rollo - I have an updated Version of the Orks that I could post, but was planning on holding off until monday because I want to redo the bases, shields, and explosion pictures.

[Master Belisarius]

Ok Atraikius, I'll try to check that. But in my view, still is a bug.

[Rollo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Rollon: "I have one question for you: When testing your AI, did you play as a human player with full AI on?"

I did both tests. First I was playing as human player with AI on. But after see the problem, I have reloaded the game some turns before take over the planet, and changed the race from human with AI on, to 100% AI race. After several turns, I have changed the AI to human control... and the planet was conquered again, and again has not new buildings and was not under Minister control.

---

Okay, thank you. That's too bad, but should be fairly easy to correct. Just make the AI hit the "full minister control button" every turn.

BTW, is there any difference in AI behavior whether "big brother is watching" or not? It was just a suspicion (sp?) of mine and I didn't bother testing it for now, because I want to keep a close eye on what they are doing.

quote:

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Originally posted by Baron Munchhausen:
Don't forget that the technology has to be in the AI_DesignCreation or AI_Construction_Facilities file in order to be used! So, it's really not to the AI's advantage to analyze anything and everything it acquires. It might just lose the use of the ship and still not be able to apply the technology! If you start putting in designs to handle any and every technology it might acquire then weird things could begin to happen. What if it gets level 1 Phased polaron beams? If it's not designed to research them and doesn't acquire any further levels then it'll keep building these wimpy ships with level 1 phased polaron while other races research plain old A-P beam to level 12 and toast those ships from a distance. So there probably need to be some major changes in the AI to make it more 'adaptable' before it should be analyzing things. Maybe it needs to check if the techs on the ship are in its normal research path? If they would normally be researched then it would be worthwhile for the AI to analyze the ship.

---

I disagree with you. Your example with the Phased Polaron Beams: If PPB is not in the research file, it shouldn't be in the design_creation file either. Just doesn't make sense.

Okay, let me explain what I mean: In my playtesting so far with the Viking AI I am doing, I have seen the following being captured:

1. A completely intact enemy Colonizer with unknown colo tech.

> That should be analyzed for sure. I guess everybody will agree on that.

2. Undamaged warships (only once)

> Well, that is probably too hard for the AI to decide what should be done with that. From what I read on the forum that is even hard for humans to decide .

3. More or less damaged warships (fairly often).Currently, the AI will send damaged warships to do repairs. If it has unknown tech (or racial tech) which cannot be repaired, the ship will sit in the space dock forever eating up resources. Not very good, especially if it has valuable tech on it (better hulls, shields, sensors etc.)

> For simplicity sake I would like the AI to do the following:
1. If it has any research value ---> analyze.
2. If it has no research value ---> scrap. If that happens to an undamaged warship or a warship that could be repaired, that's too bad, but it's probably outdated anyway or soon will be. If it has damaged components that cannot be repaired (i.e. racial tech), great, much better to scrap it than to wait on repairs forever.

Just my 0.02.

quote:

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Originally posted by Atraikius:
Master Belisarius - Do you know if the AI had switched to a different state in that time - I've noticed that some parts of the AI are dependent on the AI state for how they act, and that it seems like the minister changes are only re-evaluated when the state changes.
Rollo - I have an updated Version of the Orks that I could post, but was planning on holding off until monday because I want to redo the bases, shields, and explosion pictures.

---

Thanks a lot, I think I have managed it so far. I am using warship hulls with cargo space as designated troop transports. I suspect that is what you are doing, too. So far the AI has taken one planet using troops (hooray!) . Unfortunately it was glassed by the former owner the next turn after my fleet went away (Boooo!) . Looking at your files will still be very helpful, since I am totally new to AI creation. Also I wouldn't like the Orks and the Vikings being too much alike. So if I see too many overlaps, I will change my files. But I'll wait for you to finish your stuff. There is no hurry and still a lot of other problems I have to work on .

So to answer the original question of this thread: I didn't even get to see what the AI did with the captured planet. I have aborted the test, because I made a lot of changes. In the new test (still early in the game) the AI has not researched troops, yet. I'll keep you posted as soon as they have taken the first planet or ship (if they will ever).

Rollo
[edit] typos


[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 05 August 2001).]

[Master Belisarius]

Well, after 40 turns, the conquered planets still are not under minister control...