Help - I've fallen and I can't get up!

Alpha Kodiak · #1 July 12th, 2001, 07:52 AM

Ok, I've got to be missing something here. I am in the middle of a test of the latest tweaks to the Rage AI and have encountered the most baffling behaviour that I have seen yet.

An enemy colonizer ran afoul of a small Rage mine field. All that was left of it was the colonization module and crew quarters. It is sitting on the warp point in a Rage system and can't move. There are 30 (yes 30!) Rage attack ships and carriers that want to leave the system through that warp point. For I don't know how many turns now, those 30 ships have been going up next to that colonizer, dancing back and forth until they are low on suppies, then returning to the resupply base in that system, only to repeat the process. Over. And over. And over. (You get the picture.)

Somebody please tell me that there is some switch to turn on that will allow the attack ships to attack an enemy non-combatant (or whatever it is that is keeping them from attacking it.) I have noticed that the Rage will typically not attack lone colonizers unless they stumble upon them going through a warp point. Is it because they don't consider them threats that they leave them alone? It is extremely frustrating to watch a single crippled colonizer pin down a major battle fleet without firing a shot.

Incidentally, I am running SEIV v1.41 with TDM Modpack 1.75.

Deathstalker · #2 July 12th, 2001, 08:12 AM

I too have seen this behavior before. It was while I was testing my StarWars AI (patch 1.3 and 1.35). There was ONE satt on a warp point, left over from a sat layer getting destoyed in combat, fleets 'danced' around it for turns and turns. Could not understand why, finally had to take manual control and just nuke it. Maybe there is a button under Empire Options and the Ministers etc but how do you turn these off/on for an AI?? Heck there may not even be a button, but surely a fleet of warships could figure out that one lone satt does not pose a threat!

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"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

#3 July 12th, 2001, 09:52 AM

In ship design change the strategy of all ships which are don't get hurt to capture planet. If they carry no cargo and have no weapons then it should not affect their behavior in strategic. If they carry weapons then they might come in harms way though. Furthermore even if they can carry cargo it will not affect them unless they have troops, which changes only attacks on planets, not warp points. I was just looking at the strategies file a couple of days ago and comparing to AI design creation.

This is a temporary fix. If it works then never use don't get hurt, and change the design file. As a player change the ship strategy when you do a new design. I am sure this don't get hurt flaw is well understood and left unfixed due to a lack of sufficient complaints. You DO HAVE a don't get hurt ship in the fleet, don't you ?

Master Belisarius · #4 July 12th, 2001, 03:48 PM

This is a problem when a ship/fleet, become out of supplies... they try to reach the more nearest Resuply Base, without fight.

I think that you can't do anything to change this...

Alpha Kodiak · #5 July 12th, 2001, 04:15 PM

This has nothing to do with either the "Don't get hurt" strategy or resupply. All ships are either attack ships with "Optimal weapon range" strategy or missile armed carriers (loaded with fighters) with "Maximum weapon range" strategy. They are not all in the same fleet. In fact a number of them are not in a fleet at all. There is a resupply base in the system that they are in. Ever time they get low on supplies, they go back to the resupply base. Then they return to dance in front of the warp point. They never enter the sector of the warp point to engage the colonizer in combat.

Every once in a while, some minister decides it needs one of those ships for something else and it leaves through a different warp point. Other attack ships enter the system on some appointed task and get stuck at the troublesome warp point, thus joining the dance, resupply, dance, resupply cycle. Once they are in the cycle, their standing orders are cancelled at the end of each move so I can't see what it is they think they are trying to do.

It was funny to watch for the first 20 turns or so.

Sinapus · #6 July 12th, 2001, 04:50 PM

Sounds like you ran into the indestructable colony ship bug. Switch the structure for colony modules to 100kt.

As for how to get your fleet to attack, I have no idea...

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"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Alpha Kodiak · #7 July 12th, 2001, 05:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sinapus:
Sounds like you ran into the indestructable colony ship bug. Switch the structure for colony modules to 100kt.

As for how to get your fleet to attack, I have no idea...

I don't know if the colony module strength is anything to worry about. I've seen plenty of colonizers die in mine fields in this game. This particular mine field was quite weak, so I am not concerned that the colonizer survived. My concern is that the AI is not using attack ships to attack it. It would seem logical to attack a colonizer of a race you are at war with, whether it is blocking your path or not. I have noticed other occasions where an enemy colonizer, out of supplies, plods along at speed 1 through a system full of Rage ships, and no one bothers to do anything about it.

Sinapus · #8 July 12th, 2001, 06:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I don't know if the colony module strength is anything to worry about. I've seen plenty of colonizers die in mine fields in this game. This particular mine field was quite weak, so I am not concerned that the colonizer survived. My concern is that the AI is not using attack ships to attack it. It would seem logical to attack a colonizer of a race you are at war with, whether it is blocking your path or not. I have noticed other occasions where an enemy colonizer, out of supplies, plods along at speed 1 through a system full of Rage ships, and no one bothers to do anything about it.

If the mines were carrying mine warhead I's then a colony ship will survive with the colony module intact. The game treats each mine warhead as a separate combat, so the colony module never gets destroyed by mine warhead I's unless you lower the structure to 100kt. (Or just have the AI never research mines until they have explosive warheads 2 or 3...

Lupusman · #9 July 12th, 2001, 07:08 PM

Isn't it because the ships already have orders to go through the warp point (and not attack the colony ship), but they can't go through the warp because it is blocked. Since they don't have orders to attack, they won't attack, even though that's where they want to go.

Alpha Kodiak · #10 July 12th, 2001, 07:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Lupusman:
Isn't it because the ships already have orders to go through the warp point (and not attack the colony ship), but they can't go through the warp because it is blocked. Since they don't have orders to attack, they won't attack, even though that's where they want to go.

I believe you are correct, but the question is, why isn't a ship given orders to attack the colonizer? All of the ships in the group have had multiple trips back to the resupply base, and all of the ships wind up without standing orders at the end of the turn. For some reason, a minister is assigning the ships orders to do something on the other side of the warp point every turn, but never assigns any one of the many individual ships or fleets the responsibility to attack the colonizer.

I keep wondering if there is a setting in one of the AI files that says "Don't attack non-combatants" or "Don't attack non-threatening ships" but I can't figure out what that setting would be. Could it be something to do with the "Maximum Systems to Defend at a Time" setting in the AI_Settings file? It is set to 5 for the Rage, which is as high or higher than most. However, by this time (past turn 100), the Rage have many more systems than that and are at war with four different races. Perhaps this system is not considered threatened enough or strategic enough to warrant defending.