'Heim nerf mod?

[llamabeast]

It seems like there is still a lot of strong feeling that Vanheim is still overpowered and not really fun to play against. So, as has been suggested a number of times, why don't we make a mod to slightly nerf them for MP play?

Nations that might need some amount of nerfing:

MA Vanheim
EA Helheim
EA Vanheim
EA Niefelheim (considered less of a problem apparently, but still miserable to try to stop early game to my mind)

Now, I'm not an expert on any of these nations, but I'd be happy to put a mod together, being as it's a tiny job once we work out what changes we'd like.

So, questions for the community:

- Is my list of races correct? (especially Niefelheim, perhaps there are good counters I never worked out?)
- Would people be happy to use a mod in MP?
- What changes would you suggest?

I'd be very much inclined to err on the side of subtlety, rather than ending up making these nations weak. These nations are after all meant to be strong bless nations. My goal would be to leave them strong, but make it such that players fighting would feel they had some chance if they were skillful and came up with a good strategy. So I'd imagine something like knocking off a couple of points of defence on the Vans, a couple of points of protection off the giants, or other small changes along those lines.

As I say I have very little experience with any of these nations, so I'm completely relying on the community to guide me. I expect there will be controversy - I'll try to take the average view!

[thejeff]

Is EA Vanheim considered worse than LA?
The Vanheres seem inferior to Vans. I haven't played LA Vanheim much, but I know they still have Van (capital only now though.) Does the change in mages make that much difference?

I'd think a drop in defense for Vans and Helhirdings, maybe a cost increase as well.

What about making Vans capital only for MA?

Lowering the chill effect on the Niefel giants?

[Sandman]

I would knock a few points off the chill effect of the giants. 13 chill is devastating. Normal troops get knocked out within two rounds of combat. Abysia's heat aura doesn't seem to have the same drastic effect, even though their Burning Ones have 6 heat each, and come two to a square.

[llamabeast]

I'm not sure about how bad LA Vanheim/Midgard is, just because I don't think I've heard them mentioned as a problem. But I haven't looked at them, so they might well be just as bad as EA as far as I know.

[Gandalf Parker]

That would be a great option.

As a seperate question...
Has any server tested the switches lately to "turn off" a nation from selection? Does the --closed 15 switch work to turn off early_Vanheim? I meaning to test it but altho keep watching the conversations and the wins from the blitzes on my servers I really havent seen a reason to turn off any nations yet. But has anyone tested it?

[Sombre]

Just so you know, modding that chill aura down will be a mixture of hard and impossible.

[Kristoffer O]

You could mix in a heat aura to mitigate some of the worst chill

[Meglobob]

You know what the best nerf would be for the heims?

Give the new players or players who often get knocked out early 1st option on them when setting up a MP game.

This would also mean new players would be less likely to get knocked out early and have a better game. Thus more likely to play MP more in the future.

I think EA Vanheim, MA Vanheim, EA Helheim, EA Niefelheim and LA Ermor should all be offered to new players 1st.

[thejeff]

That's not a bad policy, but it sort of falls in the same category as banning them. It's a workaround, though one with the benefit of helping the new players.

I'd still like to see a balanced mod if possible. What was done to them in CB? May not really apply since so much else was changed, but...

Thing is, I like those nations. Van/Helheim particularly. I like the feel, I like the flavor. I like the magic they get, etc, etc. I even like the brutal cavalry. I'd like to see the sacreds nerfed enough that they're not the only effective choice. I like the EA all glamor troops idea and I'll play with that in SP. Later on the berserkers and skinshifters are very cool troops that rarely get used because it's easier and more effective to just build more blessed Vans.

I'm not sure what needs to change, but I'd love to see it done.

And I'm still puzzled that EA Vanheim makes the list and LA Vanheim doesn't. I would have guessed that EA was the weakest, at least for a bless strategy.

[quantum_mechani]

thejeff said:

I'd still like to see a balanced mod if possible. What was done to them in CB? May not really apply since so much else was changed, but...

Nerfs specifically to those nations in CB:

*Van sacred cavalry and Helhirdlings cost 90 gold
*Jotun Skinshifters cost 90 gold

That may not look like much, but keep in mind that in CB high (double 9s and higher) blesses are much costlier. If someone wants to abuse sacred troops to the max, the hits to the scales will make pumping those sacreds quite a bit more difficult, not to mention keeping up in the magic game. On the other side of the coin, nations without a huge bless get that much more out of their scales to help combat a bless rush.

And I'm still puzzled that EA Vanheim makes the list and LA Vanheim doesn't. I would have guessed that EA was the weakest, at least for a bless strategy.

I very much agree, I might call EA Vanhiem the weakest Van era, especially considering the power of the other EA nations. I'd also say Lanka is missing on that list.

I really recommend people finding bless abuse sucking the fun out of the game give CB a try. If you are daunted by the number of changes/size of the readmes and summary of the complete version, the Pretenders and Scales segment's changes are readily apparent by browsing pretender creation and help diversify the viable choices quite a bit.