German armoured engineer vehicles

[blitzkreig]

Anyone have any info on how the following German engineer type vehicles were used? Which units operated them (eg engineer/Pz Gren/Pz units)or how common they were?

1. Flame thrower tanks and halftracks.

2. Mineclearing tanks

3. 251/1 rak rocket launcher halftrack

Cheers

[thatguy96]

I can answer some of question one from Osprey's book on Flammpanzer.

It says that on 1 March 1940 the first Panzerflammabteilung (armored flamethrower battalion), given the designation Paznerabteilung (F) 100 was established. This included HQ elements, a reserve element, 3 Flammpanzer companies, and support elements. This unit was equipped with Flammpanzer II.

Besides dedicated Pz.Abt(F), Flammpanzer were apparently also distributed on a seemingly ad hoc basis to conventional Panzer elements (at brigade and company level). This is the case with PzKfw B2 (F) and Flammpanzer 38.

Flammpaner III were in fact organized into 7 vehicle platoons (Flammzug) with the idea that they would be standard issue to Panzerabteilungstabskompanie.

SdKfz 251/16s were issued similarly as a Flammzug attached to the Stabskompanie of standard PzGrenadier regiments. These platoons were 6 vehicles, and apparently by sometime in early 1944 had been moved into the Panzergrenadierpionierkompanie from the Stabskompanie, also within PzGrenadier regiments.

[blitzkreig]

Thatguy96,

Thanks for the info fella. I'm looking at putting together a panzer pioneer combat gruppe for my kamfgruppe and was wondering how speicalist kit was used/issued.

Any one any info on German mine clearing tanks? Or the 251/1 rak. I read somewhere that this rocket attachment to the basic 251 was issued to panzer pioneer btls.

cheers

[TreadHead]

Between poking around in the books I've got and the Internet, I'm coming up with more questions than answers. But here's a few things to add to the discussion:

1) Flamethrower tanks and halftracks: Additionally, the SdKfz 251/16 is specifically addressed in KStN 1130 (1.8.43) Flammenwerferzug (gep).

2) Mineclearing tanks: Unless I missed something, the game has a PzKw IVc and IVh with a mine roller. From the "Achtung Panzer!" website I found the following: "Also single Panzer IV Ausf C was fitted with experimental mine rollers but it did not enter production." http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz3.htm Not sure if anyone has any other references on this type of vehicle. If this would have gone into production, and likely in low numbers, one could surmise it would have been held at Armee or Korps level in a special Abteilung (or snapped up by the Waffen-SS...). Again, just a guess, but such a specialized asset would have been likely shuttled up and down the front and cross-attached to be employed at the sharp end of assaults on prepared positions.

3) 251/1 rak rocket launcher halftrack: As far as the SdKfz 251/1 with Wurfrahmen 40, there are plenty of references with technical details, but little regarding tactics and organization. A couple of interesting points are that the crew of 6 or 7 could not stay with the vehicle when it fired due to the open top. At best, the driver and vehicle commander could maybe be in the forward seats, but would be warm! Elevation had to be set externally at each launcher bracket itself, and traverse was via the driver pointing the vehicle with the aid of sighting vanes on top of the engine compartment. I found one photo of a SdKfz 251 on pg 37 of "Field Rocket Equipment of the German Army 1939-1945" by T.J. Gander that shows the commander using a Scherenrohr "scissor spotting scope" to sight ahead. No clue if this was standard issue or appropriated. Regardless, given the aiming procedure and time of flight of the rocket, you can pretty much forget about successfully engaging a moving target. The physical layout of the launch brackets along with an elevation limit of 5-45 degrees would also preclude point-blank fire at a level target. Gander has range tables in mils of elevation for the Schweres Wurfgeraet 40/41 with the same open crated 28 & 32cm rockets. The 5 degree minimum elevation translates to a minimum ranges of roughly 400m for the 28cm and 450m for the 32cm rockets. The CEP zone (50% hit) at those short ranges is very elliptical with a length of +160m by 20m wide. As long as you�re aiming for the broadside of a barn, the size of the warhead would hopefully make up the difference.

This leads to my next question regarding this vehicle. Were they employed for indirect fire, or just direct fire? The game allows indirect fire. Would there be specialist assigned to these vehicle with Nebeltruppen or Artillerie background that would have the skill set to employ these in an indirect mode? (Along with a other stuff necessary for gun laying and fire direction control?) While the Schweres Wurfgeraet 40/41 with the same open crated 28 & 32cm rockets were definitely manned by the Nebeltruppen, I�m not so sure about the SdKfz 251/1 with Wurfrahmen 40. Gander makes note on pg 5 that, �In the armoured attack, the independent Panzerwerferbatterie and Wuhrfrahmen-armed half-tracks closely followed the attack and laid down supporting barrages as required, although towed projector units sometimes carried out this task.� The Panzerwerferbatterien would be the 15cm Panzerwerfer 42 (auf Maultier or SWS). This is the only reference I�ve found that implies the SdKfz 251/1 would have been in these sort of batteries.

Instead, I get the sense that the employment of the SdKfz 251/1 was more of a hip shot weapon for Panzergrenadieren for direct support. Think of it as a rifle grenade on steroids. Bruce Culver�s book �SdKfz 251 Half-Track 1939-45� has a picture on pg 22 of one with a Pionierzug tactical symbol with the number 3 to the immediate right of it, and a Heer license plate. Squadron/Signal Pub 21 on the SdKfz 251 has a clear photo on pg 23 with the same tactical symbol ( I thought at first it was the exact same vehicle, but it has a different Heer license plate number). That same book has a less clear photo on pg 22 with what appears to be a similar engineer symbol and the tactical marking for the 8th Pz Div to the right of that. I haven�t found any photos with evidence of the type of battery markings found with artillery and rocket units (such as guns/platforms identified by single letters). So, there�s clear evidence it was in armored engineering units, but was it as a substitute for something or an addition to the TO&E? Does anyone know what KStN reflects this vehicle in a Pionier unit?

Was the Wufrahmen 40 equipped SdKfz 251 possibly also issued as a substitute for IGs or mortars of the heavy weapons company? Take the reference for what it�s worth, but the instructions of the Dragon model kit of the vehicle states, �According to the Kriegsstarkenweisung (Kstn) No. 1126 a(gp)(fg) Date 11th Jan 1944: the third gruppe in every Kompany was equipped with 251s with Wurfrahmen 40 but without the 8cm mortar.� In photos where vehicle tactical numbers were visible in a various references above, there are examples with 825 and 2124 (but no division markings or clear view of license plates), so in theory these were from the 8th company (typically the number of the second heavy co in a PzGren Reg) and 21st company (?!?) of their respective divisions.

Given the fluid nature of what could be lashed together to form a Kampfgruppe, I guess to a degree, anything goes, within some reasonable doctrinal boundaries. It�s certainly tempting to have that Tiger Zug advancing with the Maultiers in overwatch to employ direct fire with 15cm rockets on any AT-guns with the nerve to show themselves�

Ross

[blitzkreig]

treadhead,

Thanks for your resarch efforts fella. I've seen the KStN for the 251/16 Zug and they do sem to have been deployed in the Pioneer company of the Pz Gren Regiemnt at least from some point in 1944.

The 251/Rak is an intersting case. Getting information on its TOE seems quite hard. From the little I've come across they do seem to have been deployed within Pioneer units but at what level/numbers I'm not sure. They seem to have been a field modifcation kit to the standard 251 APC rather than a purpose built unit.

Info on the mine clearing tanks is even harder to come by. I'm still looking but haven't found any evidence that they progressed beyond the design stage which is surprising considering the sucess of allied mine clearing tanks.

Can anyone help?

[Warwick]

In the game Sdkfz251 rocket launchers are ideal for taking out A/T guns and dug-in infantry with direct fire, see Scen 51 HG at Cisterna and Scen 168 Bake Attacks, they can even rout adjoining hexes. I'm not a great fan of rocket artillery in general (too much dispersion), but these puppies in direct fire are great.

[TreadHead]

The 251/rak is definitely a retrofit kit that could be added to a SdKfz 251 model A, B, C, or D. Per Gander, "the Schweres Wurfrahmen 40 [SWR 40] was designed by the J.Gast KG. of Berlin-Lichtenberg during 1940 for mounting on the Sd Kfz 251 and 251/1." Combined with the standard 28 & 32cm rockets fired right from their wood or metal "packkiste" packing/launch crate, you've got a big but admittedly inaccurate hammer. I don't recommend these for final protective fires!

I agree about using these for killing/suppressing AT guns and strongpoints. I take the "battery" of four from the campaign/battle unit selection combined with an ammo vehicle, and have two on the firing line in good overwatch positions of the Schwerpunkt while the other two are reloading. Just don't try to reload where you had been shooting before....displace to a new covered spot to avoid counter-battery. Keep AAA assets in the area, too. Similar tactics can be used with the various Grille 15cm SIG mounts.

No figures that I could find (yet) on how many of these kits went out to the field, but Gander goes on to state, "Sd Kfz 251 half-tracks carrying the SWR 40 were widely used in Russia, especially during the sieges of Stalingrad and Leningrad. They were also encountered in Tunisia, Sicily, Italy, and NW Europe." Given that it's a kit, and readily available, the only limitation would be a source of the ammo for your Kampfgruppe's enterprising supply sergeant to get his hand on. Those Tokarev pistols you've been capturing from mopping up retreating crews trade well with the rocket batteries in the rear areas....

Ross

[blitzkreig]

Right then fellas,

I've been doing a bit more digging on this issue so thought I'd "sum up" so to speak. I did check out scen 168 those rockets rule in direct fire mode! A one shot cure for anti-tank guns if ever there was one!

flamethrowers:

Pz 1:

These were field conversions carried out by the troops using infantry flame weapons. One of the turret MGs being replaced my the projector. Exact numbers hard to come by but realitivly few due to the limited ammo (or fuel) supply for what was originally a manpack weapon. The Africa Korp converted some for the Tobruk battles.

Pz 2: Flamingo

60-90 were appently produced. The Flamingo equiped Panzer Abteilung (F) 100 (Thanks thatguy96). It was deployed on the Eastern front until Novemeber 1941 when it was withdrwan due to combat lossess. One source claims the few tanks remaining were converted into marders but I haven't been able to confirm. I've been unable to confirm which other, if any formations the flamingo served with but I think it unlikely to see any into 1942.

Pz 3:

Used in 7 vehicle Zugs (plts) this was the most succesful tank flame thrower. Appently issued one per Pz Regiment with select units from some point in 1943.

Panzerkampfwagon B-2 740(F):

Flamethrower conversion of the french Char B caputed in numbers in 1940. Converted Nov 1941- June 1942 some 60 conversions were completed. The flamethrower being mounted in the hull replacing the main gun. Units using this vehcile included PzAbtl (F) 102 supporting the 24th and 296th Infantry Divisions on the Eastern Front in the early days of Barborassa. 223rd Pz Kp deployed on the Ost front had 12 vechiles in May 1943 the 7th SS cavalry Div "Priz Eugen" had 10 vehicles in Yugolsiaiva. 101 Pz Brigade in France had 24 vehicles, with Pz Abteilung 213 in the Channel Islands having 10 (5 on Jersey & 5 on Gurnesy) possibly to the very end of the war. The only Panzers to set foot on British soil!. Pzabtl 206 operating around Cherbourg had 5 vehciles in June 1944 a number of vehcles also saw service with 100th Ersatz Pz Abtl while supporting the 96th Infantry Division around Carentan in Normandy June 1944. Seversl vehciles also saw action at Arnhem with an unknow formation (at least unkown to me!).

251/16:

Operated in Zug (plt) strength attached to select Pz Grenadier Regimental HQs from 1943. In 1944 the Zugs were attached to the Pioneer Kp of select Pz Gren formations.

Mine tanks:

Minenraumer 1 Ausf B:

50 were "apparently" produced in 1938. No photohraphs or evidence they saw active service.

Minenraumer 4:

No evidence or photogrpahs to suggest this develpoed beyond prototype stage.

The weird and whacky:

Some strange mineclearing units did enter German service in very limited numbers (see attached pics from the Axis history forum).



The 251/rak:

Hard to pin point TOE for this but it does seem to have seen widespread use with various Pz formations. In games terms it rocks! A version based on the French UE tankettte seems to have been used by leg infantry formations though it could only carry less rockets than the 251/rak.

Conclusions:

My KG will endever to get hold of some 251/raks and 251/16 veicles as a priority!

The flam tanks don't really seem to have seen widespred service with the Pz forces until the introduction of the Flampz 3 and 251/16. I can fine no evidence the mineclearing tanks ever saw service in gameterms.

If any one has any info on the flame varients of the Stug and Hetzer then please let me know.

[blitzkreig]

Well I've surprised my self!

Pictures of a minecrearing Pz II.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t:80372

Used by the Africa Korp (Year unknown).

[PanzerBob]

Thanks for the concise report, Ian, nice to see it summed up like that. Like real life, all my time with PzII Flamms, they end up dead, BOMB MAGNET comes to mind. Better luck with FlammPz III, and I once used one CharB to good effect on a couple bunkers, but slow!!

Interesting tidbit on the CharB's on the Islands, I can't help but get this Monty Pythonequese picture out of my head, where the Germans are chasing the poor islanders around (singeing pants etc) but never catching them, claiming it's a dragon...

PanzerBob out