Shoulder Launched SAM's

[Suhiir]

Looking at game data I see :

OOB : Many
(Name : Warhead Size - HE Pen - HE Kill)
Stinger : 4-3-3

OOB 11
Strela-1 : 5-5-5
Strela-2 : 4-2-2
Strela-3 : 4-2-2
Igla-1 : 4-8-8
Igla-V : 4-3-3
Igla-S : 5-4-4

From scanning various web sites I see :
Strela-3 : Warhead 1.17kg, 390g HMX
Igla-1 : Warhead 1.17kg, 390g HMX
Stinger : Warhead 2-3kg, 450g HE

From playing the game I know that on the occasions an aircraft is actually hit by s Stinger they usually take 1-5 damage and once in a blue moon actually get shot down.

Yet various sources say much the same thing :

"The Basic Stinger received worldwide attention during the Afghanistan conflict, when over 250 Russian fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters were destroyed by Mujahideen guerrillas using US-supplied Stingers. Despite limited training, the Mujahideen achieved over 80 per cent combat success with the Stinger missile. To date, the Basic Stinger has been responsible for 270 confirmed kills against both fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft types."

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_for...1013_2_n.shtml

Sooooo . . .
Aside from the apparently semi-random stats given for shoulder launched SAM's it appears (to me anyway) the Stinger is rather dramatically on the low end of the scale where all sources seem to indicate it should be near the high.

[MarkSheppard]

Well, you have to remember, that a lot of these aircraft did not crash right away; remember, that the warhead is 4 or so pounds, compared to an AIM-9's 20~ pounds.

Usually, the aircraft get hit by the Stinger, and are damaged enough to force a return to base; where they crashland, and become inoperative. You can see this in the game, when even light damage causes the plane to abort it's sorties and RTB.

[PlasmaKrab]

I have tried to gather enough data to remap the parameters of the whole MANPADS class, and it is true that most of the Russian missiles stand out as having lighter warheads than their contenders (except for the 9M313 Igla-1 in which the fuze is linked to the rocket engine to detonate the remainder of the propellant alongside the warhead, hence the current game ratings probably).
For comparison, here are some of the stats I have come up with (WHS/HEP/HEK):

-Strela-2 to Igla-M: 4/2/3
-Igla-1 & Igla-S: 4/2/5
-Stinger, Mistral, KP-SAM: 5/2/5

I have modelled the HE pen on more conventional HE-frag bases than previously done, but I may have overlooked an official rationale about SAMs having HE penetration proportional to HEK.

About lethality, Suhiir, remember that Afghanistan was a very demanding theater, being at the same time hot, dusty, and high-altitude. In these conditions, the engines and most propulsion systems are stained enough by daily operations, so the least damage to them can get down a helo of aircraft that could otherwise have gone on. Also I wouldn't be surprised of the kill rate had been enlarged (mostly in the beginning of operations) by cases of unexperienced pilots that misjudged the high-altitude piloting mechanics and/or mountainy landscape and turn an evasion maneuver into a head-on crash. Just wondering.

Also remember that the Stinger is top of the scale in accuracy as far as up-to-date versions are concerned (in game as well). In Afghanistan times, even the early Stinger was better than any Soviet MANPADS bar the somewhat rare Igla-1.

[MarkSheppard]

Speaking of A-Stan:

This is from Squadron Signal SU-25 FROGFOOT in action:

Some very interesting facts; the SU-25 was the most feared aircraft
by the mujihaddeen, even though by 1984, only 25 of them with 80 pilots
were actually flying in Afghanistan

In april of '86, Frogfoots first used Laser guided, retarded,
and cluster bombs against rebel positions, including caves.

One of the most notable strikes was a precision air strike against
the secret HQ of Ahmad Shah Massoud, one of the most
prominent muhjihadeen leaders...

From 1980 to 1989, a grand total of 23 FROGFOOTS were lost in combat,
with several more being destroyed on the ground, including 8 at once
during a rocket attack on a airbase.

During a three-day period shortly after Stingers were introduced by
the CIA to Afghanistan, four frogfoots were shot down, killing 2 pilots.

Following this, additional chaff/flare dispensers were installed and
armor plate positioned between the engines, after these modifications
were completed to all frogfoots in Afghanistan, no more Su-25s were
lost to Afghan Stingers, although several were damaged.

There was even cases where a Su-25 survived a direct hit by an
AIM-9L Sidewinder

The 23 SU-25s lost over A-Stan were 10~ percent of all USSR fixed wing
losses over Afghanistan, and the average was one loss for every 2,800
flight hours, and it was estimated it took some 80~ hits to down
a FROGFOOT, as opposed to 15-20 hits for the MiG-21 and Su-17.

There were a number of Su-25 pilots that flew several hundred
combat missions, COL Alexamir Rutskoy flew over 400 missions
and was shot down twice, while CAPT Vladislav Gontcharienko
flew 415 combat missions, was never shot down and was one
of the youngest Grach pilots to win the Hero of the Soviet Union
award.

One of the greatest Grach pilots of the Afghan war was Senior LT
Konstantin G. Pavlyukov, who.at the time, was only twenty-three.
During a mission in December of 1986, Pavlyukov managed to
destroy two Stingers launched against his formation. He shot down
the first with a burst from his AO-17A cannon, while the second was
shot down by a salvo of unguided rockets. His quick action saved the
life of the flight leader. LT A. Potchktn.

His luck finally run out during a mission against a Mujahideen position
on 21 January 1987. His Grach was hit by a Stinger missile and
although he managed to safely eject, he was wounded by Mujahideen
ground fire on the way down. On the ground, he was unable to radio
his position to rescue forces and was soon encircled by the Mujahideen.

After about an hour of attempting to evade, he killed himself and
the approaching Mujahideen with a grenade. Senior LT Pavlyukov
was posthumously awarded the Hero of the Soviet Union award.

[loktarr]

Don't forget to compare with other OOB missiles:

the impressive:
UK's Starstreak: 3x0,9kg warhead , (6/12/12)

and the stinger-like:
FR's Mistral: 3kg (5/3/3)

and add the SP-SAM:
UK: Rapier SAM: (6/10/10)

EU: Roland: (8/4/4)

Fr: Crotale: (8/14/14)

(US: linebakers with Stinger
Germany: ozelot with Stinger)

Something interresting:

The original Rapier FSB1 was deployed during the Falklands War but saw very poor performance against low-flying aircraft flying away from the launcher. Fourteen kills were claimed but later reports reveal that just two aircraft were shot down in the whole war. The Falklands proved the general inability of short range missile systems (no matter how sophisticated) to defend anywhere but their own position unless combined with a longer range air defense.

I tried in-game: 5 rapier against 8 last-generation (EW=8) aircrafts (SEAD+strike): 5 aircraft down, no rapier destroyed. It's worse for most of the SP-SAMs because rapier is one of the worst.

[PlasmaKrab]

Talking about lethality ratings, short-range SP SAMs are quite another matter than NANPADS, since several of them use hybrid Frag-HEAT warheads (Roland, Rb.70) or even contact APHE (HE with delay fuse, see the ominous Starstreak or the Rapier IIRC). These ones are harder to model, since they should get a nearly-ATGM-like HE penetration, which would be no end of overkill against aircrafts that rarely get more than 3 points of armor. I think the game allows for such missiles to get a HEAT penetration value and HEAT ammo for use against ground armor targets. That's supposed to be used only in those dual-purpose missile systems that have a real ground targetting ability, like the ADATS.

[MarkSheppard]

The Falklands proved the general inability of short range missile systems (no matter how sophisticated) to defend anywhere but their own position unless combined with a longer range air defense.

SHORADs and their ilk, MANPADs aren't really meant to be uber defense systems. Their small size and range limits them to defending their location; they're supposed to be actually PORTABLE, compared to Patriot, and short range is not a handicap when every Motorized Rifle Platoon or so has a Igla or whatever ready to shoot off at any targets of opportunity; making flying low level extremely hazardous; forcing aircraft up higher into the engagement envelope of heavy SAMs like Patriot.

[Suhiir]

Good data and info folks !

And while I agree in-game a hit, any hit, will keep an aircraft from returning for another pass (assuming it has any ordnance left after the first and is coded to do so) the game engine apparently can't abort an attack run so unless an aircraft is actually shot down any damage done to them is pretty much irrelevant.

Probably a case of "not much can be done due to limitations in the game engine" but unless you've got a Russian style TO where every platoon has a MANPAD it does make them pretty much of a waste of points (and they tend to be very expensive units).

I'll try your suggested values PlasmaKrab, it surely can't hurt *chuckles*

As far as your data from A-Stan Mark . . . looks like the missiles may be right on the money, 1 in 80 that actually hit seems to be about the kill ratio I've noticed *laughs*

[Suhiir]

Not to try to resurrect a dead horse but I got to thinking . . .

We have 40mm AA Guns in most OOB's and they seem to work pretty well.

OOB = Many --- 40mm Bofors Gun or 40mm M1 AAG
Warhead Size = 3
HE Penetration = 1
HE Kill = 13
AP Penetration = 7

OOB = Many --- 40mm L70 AAG
Warhead Size = 3
HE Penetration = 1
HE Kill = 19
AP Penetration = 9

OOB = USA --- 40mm Bofors L60 (Wpn Class 11)
Warhead Size = 3
HE Penetration = 6
HE Kill = 13
AP Penetration = 0

40mm
Wt. of projectile: HE - 1.985 lbs, AP - 1.960 lbs

Bursting Charge
(modern day)
0.20 lbs. (0.092 kg) Hexotonal

USA (World War II)
HE Mark 1 - 0.148 lbs. (0.067 kg) Cast TNT
HE Mark 2 - 0.150 lbs. (0.068 kg) Cast TNT

I can't think of any reason a MANPAD would be any less effective then a 40mm round once it actually hits, and since most have about 8x the bursting charge one might think they'd be more effective.

[PlasmaKrab]

Hmm, Suhiir, just thinking about this: don't use the AA guns for HE kill comparisons, most of them are considered burst-firing, i.e. one shot includes several rounds.
As far as I'm concerned, I've used the hand grenade basis for weight-related HE ratings, mixing in some HEK and HEP tweaks on the basis of prox-detonation issues and prefragmented/continuous-rod dedicated warheads.