Danish oob

[math_villard]

1) I note a problem in the Danish oob: TOW-2 team (unit 277) and ITOW team don't appear in the game. You must change the radio rate (from 83 to 84 or 82).

2) Will the Leopard 2A5 DK be updated with 120mm L44 WG01
or 120 mm L55 WG 01 gun?

3) Does anybody have information about Danish elite units:
- J�gerkorpset (JGK) : "The Hunters" are the Danish Army Special Forces (SOF)
- Fr�mandskorpset (FKP) : the Danish Navy SEALs (SOF)

4) Recent Danish FO vehicle have very low vision rate. Piranha FO? Denmark own 22 Piranha III : 18 APC, 2 CP (Command Post) and 2 ARV (Armoured Recovery Vehicle)

[JDRDragoon]

Lot�s of things are "wrong" with the Danish OOB. Most of it has to do with TO&E and unit organization though.

The Leo 2A5 islikely to follow the general trend in modern ammunition developments, and should be upgraded with the kind of ammunition represented by the WG01 in the game, some time in the future. The L55 Gun still remains a hypothetic possibility.

J�gerkorpset uses 5 man patrols, Fr�mandskorpset use the more traditional 4 man "SAS inspired" layout. Weapons include MP 5 (possibly silenced) C7 Rifles, C8 carbines, G3 Rifles, Minimi and MG3 Machineguns, 7.62 and 12.7mm Sniper Rifles, AT-4 and 84mm CG AT-Weapons.

The Pirnaha isn�t used as an FO vehicle, but the M113 FO (and the leg FO�s too) unit should have a thermal sight (vis. 40) available from 1989 and forwards.

[JDRDragoon]

BTW. I would like to extend the same offer to the SPCAMo group as that polish dude just did: redo the Danish OOB. As I understand, the guidelines are as follows:

"What Andy and I need is clear information not a completed OOB. We have had too many problems with third party OOB's in the past so if you have changes you would like to have made to the Polish OOB what we need is information , on a list and if there are big differences in what you have in comparison to what we have we need source info as well."

I suppose that a list of intended changes, stating what needs changed in the current OOB and why, coupled with an example of an OOB changed in such a way would be what you are wanting in this regard, yes?

[Mobhack]

What is needed is a text file change request list, item by item, unit, weapon, formation ID numbers, new values etc as bullet ppoints. No OOB at all, thanks. We will (if the changes get implemented) make the edits to the OOB ourselves.

For major changes - we would really need some sort of supporting documentation. Preferably a pointer to an official site (e.g. for massive organisational changes).

Put into a TXT file, and attach it to the posting (saves having a massive posting in the thread ! - and means it can be easily downloaded and opened in notepad, unlike a huge post on the list.

Cheers
Andy

[JDRDragoon]

List of suggested changes with documentation? Can do. But some (if not most) of the sources are military declassified manuals, not available on the web (but available through the Royal Military Library), so you will need some other person "in-country" if you really want to verify. Or simply trust me that "Reglement for Pansertropperne 303-2. Skydeinstruktion for Kampvogn Centurion" really deals with the Centurion Tank and it�s properties ;-)

[Mobhack]

JDRDragoon said:
List of suggested changes with documentation? Can do. But some (if not most) of the sources are military declassified manuals, not available on the web (but available through the Royal Military Library), so you will need some other person "in-country" if you really want to verify. Or simply trust me that "Reglement for Pansertropperne 303-2. Skydeinstruktion for Kampvogn Centurion" really deals with the Centurion Tank and it�s properties ;-)

Denmark used to be the "baby" of one of the long term playtesters (Claus Bonnesen I seem to recall) - and he was a reserve tank officer in the Danish military as I recall. He had acces to that sort of info, and because of our relationship we could trust what he said about such things !

I think this is Claus' Danish army site: http://www.panser.dk/

However over the last couple of years others have been involved in the OOB editing - and these may not have had his detailed info.

Cheers
Andy

[JDRDragoon]

Denmark used to be the "baby" of one of the long term playtesters (Claus Bonnesen I seem to recall) - and he was a reserve tank officer in the Danish military as I recall. He had acces to that sort of info, and because of our relationship we could trust what he said about such things !

I think this is Claus' Danish army site: http://www.panser.dk/

However over the last couple of years others have been involved in the OOB editing - and these may not have had his detailed info.

Cheers
Andy

Heh. But Bonnesens work on the danish army in it�s postwar infancy (the period when BOTH british and swedish weapons, plus german leftovers were used) is still a bit lacking. I am hoping that I can add some information to this, very peculiar and very overlooked time period.

I am also a Danish Army reservist. Does that count too ;-)

[cbo]

JDRDragoon said:
Heh. But Bonnesens work on the danish army in it�s postwar infancy (the period when BOTH british and swedish weapons, plus german leftovers were used) is still a bit lacking. I am hoping that I can add some information to this, very peculiar and very overlooked time period.

The Danish OOB could certainly do with more work, so knock yourself out

IIRC the OOB I started to work on was more or less the SP2 disaster area with some minor corrections, so just about anything was an improvement. As you correctly point out, my thing is mainly the Danish Army in the 1945-1960 period and mainly about the armoured components. Aside from that, I just added what I had picked up here and there and tried to make a coherent OOB out of it. Trying to match up the units across time to allow the computer to do a decent pick also took a good deal of effort!

At the time, I did not make too much out of the many varieties of infantry weapons used, as it would've bloated the OOB with essentially identical units with identical performance using differently named weapons. But I guess that is a matter of temperament - I could easily live with one weapon - "rifle" - representing the various types used

JDRDragoon said:
I am also a Danish Army reservist. Does that count too ;-)

Nah, knowing what you are doing is what really counts

Btw, Andy gave me some undeserved credit, I have in fact never served in the army, I'm just interested in some types of military kit and organisation out of a general historical interrest.

Looking forward to your improved Danish OOB!

Claus B

[JDRDragoon]

cbo said:The Danish OOB could certainly do with more work, so knock yourself out

Tak, tak

IIRC the OOB I started to work on was more or less the SP2 disaster area with some minor corrections, so just about anything was an improvement. As you correctly point out, my thing is mainly the Danish Army in the 1945-1960 period and mainly about the armoured components. Aside from that, I just added what I had picked up here and there and tried to make a coherent OOB out of it. Trying to match up the units across time to allow the computer to do a decent pick also took a good deal of effort!

Yup. About the only thing that SP 2 got right was the M41-DK 1. I am mostly using "det Kongelige Garnisonsbibliotek" and webpages such as Danskpanser and Armyvehicles.dk for sources. About the computer pick lists, I feel your pain. it is truly a hassle to get the computer to pick the "correct" unit for a given formation at a given time. I find myself using distinct unit classes and formations, coupled with timely use of the X0-1-2-3 Radio Codes in order to achieve this. But it�s still hard.

At the time, I did not make too much out of the many varieties of infantry weapons used, as it would've bloated the OOB with essentially identical units with identical performance using differently named weapons. But I guess that is a matter of temperament - I could easily live with one weapon - "rifle" - representing the various types used

I just can�t help myself in this regard. If I can represent a weapon in MBT, even if odd and obscure, I will do it, provided that a precedence can be found in another OOB. So no Minelayers for me ;-).

Nah, knowing what you are doing is what really counts

Btw, Andy gave me some undeserved credit, I have in fact never served in the army, I'm just interested in some types of military kit and organisation out of a general historical interrest.

Looking forward to your improved Danish OOB!

Claus B

Thanks. I am sort of trying to work in increments of 5-1o years.

1946-1950:
Very confused period. Every kind of imaginable /and unimaginable weapon used). Swedish and british infantry weapons dominate. Most of the guns are british (17pdr, 6 pdr, 25pdr, along with some swedish AT and AA guns), along with the armoured cars.

1950-1960�ish.
Defence reform of 51 and NATO membership means Military assistance from the US (and Canada). US infantry weapons begins to dominate, along with US artillery and sundry other WW2 leftovers donated to the cause. First tank is the Sherman, soon followed by the Centurion and lighter speciality designs (M24 Chaffee for the Recon squadrons, M10 for tank destroyer units). An independent Armor Arm is created, with Tank and Motor Battlions (the latter truck borne, but from 55-on various Halftracks are available, though these are mostly used in the Recon squadrons).

1960�ish to 1970 or so.
Large structural reforms. New light tanks (M41), armoured carriers (M113) and SP artillery (M109) ensures that pace is kept with international military trends and developments. The large scale arrival of the M113 ensures that infantry outside the armoured units can now ride into battle instead of driving softskins (or indeed, walking) Danish army one of the first to introduce dedicated ATGM (COBRA in 1962). The first infrared weapon sights and projectors for both small arms and larger weapons makes their appearance at the end of the 60�s. This combined with the still relatively modern equipment received during the 50�s, ensures that the Danish army is probably at it�s strongest during this period the cold war.

1970�ish to the late 80�s (fall of the Wall).
The technological development of weapons runs rampant, and the danish military is hard pressed to keep up. Still, the 70�s sees the army at least holding level, introducing the TOW (both on softskins and M113s) and the Leopard 1A3 tank, combined with a new service rifle (G3) to partially replace the old Garand received in the early 50�s, and the M72 LAW to combat armour (replacing the 89mm M20 Bazooka). IR Night vision equipment for tanks is standardised. Attempts to professionalize large parts of the army ultimately fails, due to lack of volunteers, though some service arms (most notably the technology heavy/reliant tank, AD and maintanence units) are almost all volounteer/contract units by the end of the 80�s.
During the 80�s the danish army starts to fall seriously behind the international developments. Thermal sights are not introduced untill the later part of the decade, and then not on all tanks or heavy weapons systems (mostly on the upgraded, but still almost obsolete, Centurion and M41 tanks, and on the TOW weapons system). The lack of a heavy infantry AT(GW) is somewhat alleviated through the large scale purchase of the 84mm CG RR. The artillery gets somewhat upgraded too, with the introduction of longer barrels on both SP and towed 155mm artillery, but it is clear that quite a lot of the mobilization stock equipment received during the 50�s (and still in use) such as the 105mm M101 howitzer, the Garand rifle and the 106mm RR is now dangerously close to being worn out and obsolete.

1990�ish to about 2000.
The fall of the wall means a well deserved breather. The CFE treaty means the reduction of a lot of the oldest and ****tiest equpment, starting with the oldest mobilization stock Centurions (those still equipped with 84mm guns!). The last of the Old "Cold War tanks" (Centurion and M41)are gone by the end of the 90�s. A homogenization of the Danish tank fleet is set in motion, with the standard tank now being the Leopard. More Leopards were bought in Germany, to replace scrapped Centurions, and these are later upgraded to 1A5DK standard (essentially a LEO 1A3 Hull and Turret with the upgraded electronics, thermal sight and integrated fire directing equipment of the Leo 1A5). Lessons learned the hard way in Bosnia and Croatia ensures uparmouring of the M113, and a new service rifle to supplement the G3 (the canadian C7a1) was bought, supplanting the Garand in the process. light amplification equipment now became standard on all heavy weapons systems not equipped with thermal sights, and on many small arms too. The end of the 90�s saw the introduction of such weapons as the Leo 2A4 and the MLRS. Other notable upgrades included the addition of machinegun armed firesupport vehicles for the M113 equipped infantry companies, and the acquisition of AT helos. The danish army was now equipped to the teeth, ready to fight an enemy that died with the fall of the wall.......

2000-2005�ish
The first years of the new millenium saw the last of the old cold war mobilization stock vehicles and weapons donated to the Baltic countries, with US approval. The Leo 2A4s were upgraded to A5 standard, and a UAV system purchased. The Danish army still relied on conscription for most of it�s units (somewhat supplemented by professional soldiers in some categories, most notably technically difficult jobs such as maintanenece, Air defence or tank units, which all had a large cadre of professionals), maintaining a small standing army and quite large mobilization forces. The Political Defence agreement of 2004 changed all this. The only standing army units are now to be two brigades, one manned with full time professionals, the other manned by a cadre on contract. The MLRS and ALL towed artillery was abolished, since the these systems were both unsuited for INTOPS and very expensive to maintain to boot, being really only usable for the large scale all-out combat scenario that disappeared with the fall of the wall (or so the reasoning goes...). The Leo 1A5 got the boot too (the fact that the typical INTOPS operation are typically more of an infantry job might have something to do with this. That, and the fact that the Leo 1A5 is getting a bit long in the tooth w. it�s 105mm gun). The last of the old Cold war weapons are now so worn out that they are useless (most notably the 81 and 120mm mortars) and the arrival of replacement systems are still pending. The UAV system proved to be something of a flying turkey, and is to be abolished as well. This leaves the Danish army, at present, somewhere between the world of yesterday (with the need to fight a high intensity war against WAPA) and tomorrow (with the need to fight somewhere, sometime against someone, probably in an international operation far-far away, for which an army, whose war-strenght is mostly composed of draftees, is unsuited).

2005-XXXX
The abolishment of the old draftee centered moblization army is going full tilt. Possible new acquisitions include a dedicated IFV to replace the M113 in the dedicated armoured units. New SP Gun and mortar systems are also being sought out to replace those worn out. The buying of personal radios and the acquisiion of improved small arms sight (both day and night) means an improvement in the combat power of the individual soldier. New "netcentric" C3I systems are implemented (though this is somewhat outside the scope of MBT). The danish army of tomorrow will be much smaller, but hopefully also much better. We will see.

Well, that is my timeline, and I�m sticking to it

[cbo]

JDRDragoon said:

1950-1960�ish.
Defence reform of 51 and NATO membership means Military assistance from the US (and Canada). US infantry weapons begins to dominate, along with US artillery and sundry other WW2 leftovers donated to the cause. First tank is the Sherman, soon followed by the Centurion and lighter speciality designs (M24 Chaffee for the Recon squadrons, M10 for tank destroyer units). An independent Armor Arm is created, with Tank and Motor Battlions (the latter truck borne, but from 55-on various Halftracks are available, though these are mostly used in the Recon squadrons).

I've been doing a lot of research in Danish Army archives over the years, primarily the motor vehicles of the early NATO period (1950-1960). Let me know if there are some items on which you need additional info.

The US halftracks are an interesting lot, btw. The first batch of 16 arrived in 1946 and were used as tractors for the 17-pdr anti-tank guns found exclusively with the Infantry Pioneers (Fodfolkspionererne, later 9. regiment) in southern Jutland. These were all from the M5 and M9 series, but hardly two were alike, some being A1s, other former anti-aircraft artillery mounts etc.
Anway, they were withdrawn in the early 1950ies and were then re-issued to the Jutland Dragoons in 1955 and used in the light squadron of the armoured battalion. In 1958 a number of M3 halftracks were delivered and used in the light squadrons of both GHR and JDR. Several of these were M16 anti-aircraft vehicles rebuilt as APCs. The M5s were rebuilt as mortar carriers and maintenance vehicles for the mechanics. It would appear that some M3s were also rebuilt as mortar carriers, but AFAIK we never had any M21 proper, all mortar carriers were built in Denmark on the available chassis.

Do you know anything about the status of the Leopard 1A5 btw? It has been said that they were all to be scrapped, but the latest defense agreements speaks of a reduction from 230 to 50. Wonder what their intentions are with the last 50?

Claus B