USMC infantry questions

thatguy96 · #1 July 4th, 2005, 12:28 AM

I'm working on creating a USA and a USMC oob specifically for the Vietnam conflict from about 1960-62 until about Jan 1973, but in the process I've stumbled upon some things in the USMC oob I just simply do not understand.

The main issue is the infantry units, and their weapons loadouts. Not only do USMC infantry units have a totally odd mix of weapons, in certain cases they have weapons that they did not use. The Mk 23 Mod 0 LMG, more commonly known as the Stoner LMG or Stoner 63A Commando LMG, was only in use operationally by SEAL teams, and only then in very small numbers.

I also have no information to suggest that the USMC's "interim SAW," seen in the oob as the "M16 LMG" or something to that extent, was used in Vietnam at all, althought I'm more readily willing to believe I could be wrong about that.

Also, I'm curious as to what the "USMC FireTeam" was based on, as it bears resemblance to no USMC unit I am familiar with. I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm just curious as to where that came from.

Thanks in advance for any information, and regardless of all of this I'm quite happy with the progress that's been made to the SP series with WinSPMBT.

PlasmaKrab · #2 July 4th, 2005, 04:06 AM

If you want to spare you the bother, or just have a very very detailed workbase, someone here has just issued a pretty good Vietnam mod!

You can download the Viet War Pack 3.1 here:

http://rapidshare.de/files/2151698/V...k_3.1.zip.html

Probably you can find much more details on Vietnam-era USMC there than what was possible to put in the game!

Then either you are satisfied with this one or want to overdetail on top of it is your concern!

But I guess if you have feedback about this the author would be glad to hear it... Don't doubt he'll be here soon enough!

thatguy96 · #3 July 4th, 2005, 01:03 PM

I'll definitly look into it, but I do have a detail knowledge base, which is why I decided to start this project.

Thx for the reply.

...it says the Vietnam War Pack has been deleted by the uploader. Well, thanks anyhow.

kevin · #4 July 4th, 2005, 04:46 PM

As a former Marine, I can say that the fireteam is the basis of which the entire Marine Corps is organized.

I don't know what the organization was during Vietnam. but I can tell you what the Fireteam is all about.

The fireteam consists of 4 members, 1 SAW and 3 M-16s. The youngest member walks point and is trained as a scout. Next comes the assistant gunner. He carries an M-16 and extra ammo boxes for the SAW. The SAW gunner is 2nd in command and the Fireteam leader is a Corporal, w/ M-16 and an M203 Grenade launcher attached. (This is also the basis for Army Fireteams).

This provides a lot of firepower that is easily controlled by one person using just hand signals. Increasing the number of SAWs or Grenade launchers provides too much strain on the logistics train with very little in return. (Multiple SAWs are likely to attract Mortar fire)

3 Fireteams and a Sergeant make a Squad, 3 Squads a Platoon and so on up to 3 Regiments in each Division

thatguy96 · #5 July 4th, 2005, 05:59 PM

That's essentially how the Army treats it as well, but I've not heard of situations where individual fireteams were deployed, except on more specialist actions like reconaissance patrols and the like.

I guess the designs felt that by allowing people to deploy individual fireteams, and how this is not really inaccurate, that it would give a greater degree of flexability to play with. I had originally thought that were the same size as normal infantry units and went back and looked and they were not. It also gives the USMC OOB a sort of "Cav Scout" size unit too, where it might otherwise be without one.

AB · #6 July 5th, 2005, 01:33 AM

Quote:

thatguy96 said:
I also have no information to suggest that the USMC's "interim SAW," seen in the oob as the "M16 LMG" or something to that extent, was used in Vietnam at all, althought I'm more readily willing to believe I could be wrong about that.

The M16 Saw is a regular M16. The guy designated as the M16 Saw gunner carried extra magazines, and was supposed to fire on full auto, whereas the other M16's were supposed to be fired on semi-auto. I was in the 82nd ABD in 1984 and we still did this, although we got the real saw shortly after my arrival.

At the time, the M16 SAW didn't seem so stupid, as i was trained to just do as i was told. Now that i'm a bit older, i think it was just a really stupid way to pretend we had a SAW when we didn't. It didn't even have a heavy barrel attached, although i remember seeing a really cheap clip-on bipod.

Oh, and i think the reason for the 'fire team' based unit is so that you can play very small scale scenarios, where having the squad broke down into three component parts was appropriate. It is a regular Marine squad, just subdivided. It might be good for certian defensive battles, spec-ops type missions. I think it would suck for assaults.

thatguy96 · #7 July 5th, 2005, 09:00 PM

So the M16 SAW in game terms represents the guy with the M16 set to auto? I was familiar with this operating method and its use pre-M249, but given the testing of the XM106 and the WAK "Interim SAW" I thought I'd ask to make sure.

After looking at the fireteam as I did before the last post, I fully agree that the reason for putting the Marine FT into the OOB was to allow for more flexability and variety in game terms.

PlasmaKrab · #8 July 6th, 2005, 01:08 PM

Sorry from the broken link! But anyway, the mod I was talking about has been re-uploaded here.
I thought it would be of some interest to you (and others)!

Ambush7169 · #9 July 6th, 2005, 03:25 PM

Hello !

I'm back after holidays, and a new Viet War pack, for WinSPMBT will be released soon. Before that, you can download the old one, for SPMBT 3.1. Thanks for the link, Plasma !

I've read your posts with interest, and, you're wrong Thatguy96. USMC used Stoner in Vietnam. Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division field-tested Stoner weapons since February 1967 : "Most marines are issued the rifle, while officers and NCOs are issued the carbine. A couple of the Bren-style LMG are mixed in for squad automatic use, while the Weapons Platoon receive the belt feld LMG and MMG" ( A 5,56 x 45 Timeline : BTW a very interesting document).

I'm sure you'll find the USMC order of battle for VWP very accurate...

Best regards,
Laurent Touchard

thatguy96 · #10 July 6th, 2005, 09:00 PM

It says that all of the USMC's Stoner 63s were exchanged for M16A1s at the end of the test cycle, which last from February 1967 until May of that year. I'll admit I was wrong, but I think the dates might still be innaccurate in the OOB. I guess I was more familiar with the USN SEALs who kept their Stoner 63As in active inventory right up until Grenada.