Why are Sages fair? Opinions wanted!

[Chazar]

Are sages necessary for competitive MP play? Am I completely screwed if I do not get access to a Library (or LoreMasters, etc.)?
Please state your viewpoint along with detailed reasons in a reply! The poll is merely there to provide a summary.

Let us assume a standard game setting (~10 provinces per player, 40% magic sites, etc.) as a base for discussion.

Why I ask and what I want from you:
I have an impression that access to sages is required for any chance to victory for most nations. Sure, a lot of luck is required to win an MP-game, but must things can be influenced by the player (i.e. willingly choosing between luck and misfortune influences the chances of a razed lab/temple in your captial; one is able to choose whether to send a non-immortal magic-skilled pretender into battle or not, etc). However, I cannot influence the chances of having a library right next door to my captial, especially in non-gigantic maps... This is bad in my view!

So I am wondering about other people's opinion on the impact of sages. I once asked about a mod to reduce the research bonus of sages by 2 points (Post#309766), but what puzzles me is that no one else seems to care at all, so I am looking for reasons why the existence of sages is balanced if not everybody can get them with a 40% magic site frequency or even lower. (I think a 50% magic sites ensures that there will be Library nearby for everybody.) What are reasons to use the mod? What are reasons against using it? Does research difficulty and map size influence the necessity of sages?

[Ygorl]

There will be sages somewhere. I will find them. I will make them mine.
Until then, I'll do okay with my nationals.
If some part of this plan doesn't work out, maybe I won't win.
Point is, there are lots of sites that give a huge bonus to their holder. The provinces in which they are located are important. This is a good thing - one of the ways Dominions is more interesting than checkers.

[Chazar]

Ok, I should state my reason here as well: I think that one is screwed in MP without access to sages:

• I can't recall a successful game of mine that went along without masses of sages...admittingly not a good reason!
• Sages are not only efficient in research, they are pretty fast too: Compare Sages to Ctis Shaman for an example
  Code:

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  Shaman (RP 4, cost 110 gold, upkeep 3,66 (sacred))
  
  Sage (RP 7, cost 80 gold, upkeep 5,33)
  
  

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  The Shaman is not only already a little less efficient than the Sage in terms of research per gold, it is slower as well: A single cheap lab allows me to produce a sage per month. Whereas two castles, two labs and two temples are needed to produce two shamen, which will yield a similar research. This is already a lot of time and money! For other nations, similar examples can be given. (I think the shaman is a good example since I assume that it was meant to be a good researcher.)
• Not all nations are (and should be) equally good at research. However, sages are available to all, which thus is a bigger advantage for nations which are bad at research in general.

I thus think that Sages are just better in all respects. I would like it much more, if sages would only yield 3RP as usual and would cost mere 30GP, i.e. 2gold upkeep. Thus they would still be more efficient in the long run, but would not also be as speedy as they are now.

I don't know it, but things that are better in all respects are no-brainers, no? And no-brainers are bad, yes?

[tinkthank]

Hey, nice post Chazar!

I will give you some of my reasons, even though I am not voting in this poll. (I think you will need 4-6 questions with more choices to do it right, sorry.)

1. Sages are important to a number of nations in MP: certainly.
2. This fact is not entirely "bad" in the big view: It really makes it important when choosing scales.
3. Libraries are 0-level sites, so spies can find them quickly in provinces you havent captured and, of course, for those you do capture. When I play a nation with spies and which I feel benefits greatly from sages, I send them out looking asap.
4. I do not think high magic site frequency is the answer, nor nerfing the sage. I will probably never play another MP game with more than 40 or at the most 45% site frequency; I prefer 30ish or maybe lower. This gives equally bad chances to everyone.
5. *IF* you are indicating (and it is not clear what you mean) that *EACH* nation needs to find sages or they are screwed, then keeping MF low could help, OR there may just not be a problem at all. *IF* however you mean that only *SOME* nations will be screwed if they do not find sages (because these really need them), then I think that this may be a good feature: Nations which "need" sages may have other advantages that those other nations do not have.
So....
6. In general, I disagree with the very global statement "I am already screwed...", since
a.) if no-one finds them, I am not less screwed than they
b.) I may not need them -- in fact, I try not to rely on them when building my nation. (So yes, I choose bizarre builds sometimes.)
c.) In general, I do not find sages to be *that* much more game-winning than finding other really nice sites fairly early on (lots of gold, big gem sites, or bonus-to-cast sites).

[tinkthank]

PS. I see you posted in the meantime.

You have a new argument.
Yes: No-brainers are bad.
A sage is not, however, always a no-brainer, although getting about 5-6 sages asap is almost always good. Sages are better at research than any national mage, period (although I am not sure about the Philosopher); that is their raison d'etre. But they can't do much of anything else. Having them boosts your research very quickly, if you have the money for the lab and for recruiting them. But they are certainly not no-brainers over other commanders; I have never played a game where I stop making my own commanders because I find sages.
Still, if everybody thinks that he who finds sages in MP will likely beat others, then I would prefer that their RP bonus be reduced from 4 to 3.

[Chazar]

tinkthank said:I will give you some of my reasons, even though I am not voting in this poll. (I think you will need 4-6 questions with more choices to do it right, sorry.)

I agree completely! A poll needs a lot of questions and answers, but it is difficult to anticipate all possible opinions. Therefore I am only interested in the reasons, as you have posted yours! Thanks! I am interested in considerations about the topic. My small poll shall only give a rough overview for someone who may find this post later on: if the results would be 5 against 50, there would be no need to read the whole thread, since the topic would not be controversial, but merely a singular misguided perception of mine...

[Chazar]

PS: It might help to be aware of the Dom2 Research Calculator by (?webpage does not name its inventor?)! With most settings, sages are among the top (except for Philosophers)!

[Oversway]

It seems like its a gamble to rely on being able to get sages. Some people will choose & design their nation based on finding them, some won't.

You do have a good point that if you find a library that you can protect, it is very rare that you wouldn't use them.

Anyways, I think you can mod away the 'sage factor' if you like...

[Huzurdaddi]

They are really unbalanced. It's painfully clear. Most nations who do not find them for one reason or another have horrible research. Those that do find them have good research.

You can somewhat insulate yourself from the horror of not finding mages by taking magic-3 scale and playing one of the nations who has decent base researchers ( woe to he who plays Abysia, Nieflehem, or Ulm and does not find Sages). If you find one or two of these sites early in the game you can rest assured that all other things being equal you will do pretty well in the game. If you have not found any by turn 30 well you had better be kicking *** in some other phase of the game.

[Boron]

A Theurg has 6 RP and costs 150 Gold , because he is sacred he costs slightly lower upkeep then a sage .
The nice thing is that a Theurg can be used in early-midgame as a quite good combat mage also and in lategame as a "fodder"mage .

A Seraph costs 100 Gold and gives at least 5 RP , so an almost as good researcher then the sage but also a very nice combat mage too .
Finally there is the generally more useful non-capitol only seithkona also .

All in all most nations really benefit from sages though and only for the 3 above mentioned Nations sages won't bring a big extra advantage , though you probably still build 1-2 sages even with these nations if you can afford .