Beating Hording Strategies without Hording

[Verjigorm]

I'm relatively new to Dom2 and I've noticed that a lot of MP games employ house limits on number of clams, fever fetishes, and soul contracts. My brother and I have found clam hording and soul contract hording very effective strategies, and I was wondering if there are any general or nation-specific strategies out there for defeating these strategies without resorting to one (e.g. using to clamming to beat soul contracts, etc.).
The idea of imposing limits on these items is unpalatable to me because it eliminates some interesting strategies and weakens nations which have a greater reliance on such tactics to boost their odds of winning (e.g. Mictlan/Atlantis), but I have noticed that a clamming Arcoscephale or Pythium quickly becomes an unstoppable force riddled with Etherlords, Harbingers, and multiple high-end summons per round (among numerous other things like absolute control of 4-6 global enchants etc.).

Any ideas?

[alexti]

Most (maybe even any) of non-hoarding strategy are based on conquest. There're many different conquest strategies and they vary a lot depending on the nation. But in any case, you need to take advantage of the hoarder before his hoarding has paid off. It doesn't necessary mean you have to attack hoarder (though it's often the better choice). Conquering some other neighbour is good too.

[Cainehill]

Cha! You think Clamdiggers or communion-hounds are unstoppable??? Pshaw!

As Alexti (who I think was the one player Norfleet the Unholy expressed respect for) said, you conquer the world quickly enough to not leave the hoarders enough to grow from.

Pythium may be strong in the end game, sure. Then again - I've seen R'lyeh winning from blood magic, and Carrion Woods winning by having more gemic than anyone else. Arcos, at least for me, isn't that strong....

The trick really is to do something they didn't expect : Forge up as an ocean nation, Nexus up as Ulm, etc. You may still lose the game (since most of us lose most of our games, no matter how good we are), but you may help decide who wins.

[Boron]

Flames from the sky etc. works against hidden scouts as well .
Many of the good hoarding nations like pythium have very fragile mages as well .

So with a bit of luck with some flames from the sky you can almost wipe out your enemies main forging industry/clam hoarders . I think most players don't disperse their forging industry too much and keep it mainly in their capitol .

So earlygame with fires from afar you could surprise an arco/pythium player before he has domes up probably .
Lategame you can eventually kill his domes with seeking arrows etc. and then some of your flames from the sky come through .

Depending on the clamhoarding strat the clamhoarders are very vulnerable for 20-40 turns . Before wishing clamhoarding is not that good as well .

Imo nations were hoarding is in general very dangerous are especially Caelum , Ryleh and Atlantis .
Ryleh and Atlantis because they have the advantage of the "fortress sea" and atlantis has the highest starting water income as well .
Caelum because it is very strong early-midgame . So it can do some quick conquests and then hoard .

The bigger the map , the better hoarding gets . In maps >200 provinces you should somehow hoard imo , but in all maps <200 provinces you probably win easier without hoarding .

[deccan]

Boron said:
Flames from the sky etc. works against hidden scouts as well .

You sure? I thought hidden units were invulnerable to everything. Pre-patch, hidden scouts with soul contracts were even invulnerable to horror attacks.

[Boron]

deccan said:

You sure? I thought hidden units were invulnerable to everything. Pre-patch, hidden scouts with soul contracts were even invulnerable to horror attacks.

Yeah . Thufir slaugthered lots of my hidden black servants + scouts with FFTS in back to the fray . Now Edi as Abysia does the same to him .

So antlantis is really the best clamhoarding nation cause those spells don't work underwater and they have the highest starting income .

Imo above the sea you can't reliable enough protect your industries lategame .
If you spread a lot getting domes everywhere is costly , if you concentrate you don't get reliable enough protection via domes .
Cause of that i am looking forward to my next game where i will play an underwater nation the first time

[Tuidjy]

I never base my strategy around hoarding, but I do not think I have ever played
a game in which I did not hoard something. Fetishes for supplemental gold income
and remote harrasment, clams for supplemental gem income and wishing, and
bloodstones for the path boost and gems. I do not play nations to which hoarding
comes naturally, but there always comes a point at which it costs you very
little to start something.

For example, my pretender always has at least two levels in water, and when he
searches, water income builds up. At construction six, any mages with a water
random can start forging clams with the extra water gems. I do not rely on this
to win the game, but it always better to have a Foo and a Bar instead of a Foo.

The only hoarding that I seldom bother with is soul contracts. Not that they
are not useful, but the devil accumulation is often like a red flag to a bull,
and brings everyone else on your head. Now, master diplomats like my girlfriend
seem to get away with it, but I prefer to avoid the risk... mostly because after
getting caught by devils once, I have always been able to ground and fry them at
low cost.

Anyway, to answer your question, hoarding is a part of the game, just like for
example, building temples. You may win without building any, but it would be
quite unusual. You may win primarily by building temples, but it would be quite
unusual as well. On the other hand, if you have everything that your opponents
has, and, in addition to that, have a fortified temple in every province...

So my advice is not to obsess about hoarding, but also not to ignore it.
Remember that every coin or gem sitting in your treasury is wasted unless you
are saving it for a specific reason. Be aware of how long it takes for an
investment to repay itself, and decide whether you should forge a clam, fire a
few 'Voice of Aspu/Tiamat', make a pair of boots for your thug, empower a mage,
or even summon a bunch of creatures... There is a right choice for every
situation, but there is no choice that's right for every situation.