Caelum vs. T'ien Ch'i

[The Panther]

The post where people were asked to rate the nations had a clear winner and a clear loser. Caelum came out on top and TC came out on bottom. So why is this?

I recently tested TC for the first time to find out why Caelum is so much better than TC. And the answer is crystal clear. It's the mages!

Mages are far and away the most important thing for any nation. They do research. Build artifacts. Summon troops. Lead troops. Fight battles. Search for sites. In fact, absolutely everything needed in this game starts with the mages.

So, lets examine the Caelum and TC mages:

1. Cheap mages:
A. Seraph - A2W1 - 100 gold - recruitable everywhere.
B. MotW - W1?1P2 - 100 gold - recruitable everywhere.

The MotW gets a random, which is nice. The 2 priest is not very useful other than to halve the upkeep cost plus build an occasional temple, and I for sure would rather have a second random.

The Seraph has no random, which is not so good. But, and this is the key, it does not need one! Any Caelum player will get quickness/lightning right away. Then quickness/false horrors a bit later. Who needs a random? These Seraphs have the ideal skills for their cheap price. They can research and are extremely powerful in battles. They can also build some cheap artifacts when needed, like boots of flying and quill pens. And eventually, water bracelets for clam hoarding.

I would give a slight edge to Caelum on this, especially since it's mage has one more research level. But the one MotW random means you can get a W2 clam building mage easily as TC and do more level 1 site searching because of that random, plus they are half the upkeep cost. This is why I gave Caelum only a slight edge.

2. High mages:
A. High Seraph - A3W2?1 - 175 gold - recruitable everywhere!!!
B. Celestial Master - F1A1W2S1?1P3 - 250 gold - capitol only!

The cost difference is astounding. OK, the three priest level is mildly useful, which is where the extra purchase price goes. But the S1 is horrid! Any astral race will kill these mages fast. And you don't have all that many anyway due to the capitol only problem. Plus, the ONLY level 2 they come with is water, arguably the single worst school. It means you can immediately build clams. Big deal! You will quickly get a W2 MotW soon anyway and he will build the clams. Plus the only school you can get immediate access up to level 3 is water. Caelum can get air 4 out of the box! Ugh.

This is not even remotely balanced. The better mage is MUCH cheaper and built anywhere! In fact, I would go as far as claiming that the Caelum power mages are twice as cost effective as the TC power mages. The ONLY benefit to the CM is the lower upkeep cost.

This is, imho, why T'ien Ch'i deserves the bottom spot and Caelum gets the top spot. Not the only reason, but perhaps the predominate one.

So, how to fix this? And can it be done in a patch?

My first cut:
1. Increase the cost of the Seraph slightly, perhaps to 120.
2. Make the High Seraph capitol only and/or increase the cost to maybe 200 or 225.
3. Remove the S1 from the CM and make it a second random or perhaps a second fire.
4. Change the A1W2 to A2W1 on the CM.

Is this enough to make T'ien Ch'i a vaible race? Is this punishment enough for Caelum? Opinions, anyone???

[Kel]

I wouldn't want to see every nation evened out in every area. Nations should be made special on their own merits and have their own strengths, rahter than making every nation have similar attributes.

In short, it is ok that some nations have better mages, some have better economy, some better paths, some better in early game, some better in late game, etc.

If you think TC should be stronger, I would rather see it be something new than just smudging the lines a bit between them and Caelum.

- Kel

[alexti]

Caelum mages have another very important advantage: they can fly. Another advantage of Caelum is their cold scales.

MotW is pretty good though, don't discount halved maintenance. Plus, priest levels are more valuable then it looks. With Caelum you have to buy both mages and priests, with TC you need much less priests.

The weakness of TC is somewhat more complex that just costs. As you said S1 is one of the problems. Another one is that TC doesn't have good battle mages worth of mass production. CM are too expensive for what they do (flexibility is nice, but not at that cost). First few CM are really valuable (for searching, forging, summoning etc). But more CMs don't bring much. MotW are more cost-efficient, but most of them won't have good spells to cast.

I dislike idea of increasing Caelum costs, I'd rather took random from high seraphs, making them A3W3. They'd still have their flavour, and good cheap mages, but they'd also get very specialized, but without any randoms and only 2 paths covered it would call for specific strategies.

[The Panther]

alexti said:
I dislike idea of increasing Caelum costs, I'd rather took random from high seraphs, making them A3W3. They'd still have their flavour, and good cheap mages, but they'd also get very specialized, but without any randoms and only 2 paths covered it would call for specific strategies.

If you do this, then Caelum has no random picks, just like Ulm (which could be the subject of another post ) This might work, though, if you also change the Seraphs to A1W1?1.

The simple fact remains, both the Seraphs and the High Seraphs are simply too good for the cost, making Caelum the best race. And building High Seraphs everywhere is like piling on!

Of course, it is impossible to fully balance 17 different races. So we might as well continue to have Caelum picked in every game and TC picked rarely. Right?

Has anybody actually played an MP game with 10 or more players in which T'ien Ch'i won? Anybody?

Can you imangine the odds you would get in Las Vegas betting on T'ien Ch'i as compared to Caelum in a 10 player game with people of approximately equal skills?

[Cainehill]

Another way to weaken Caelum slightly would be to change their random to be random elemental only. Sure, it means they get more A4s, but it also makes it tougher for them to get nature, death, and astral, all of which are quite valuable. (This would seem to make some sense, since Caelum's mages are definately elemental based - it makes more sense, imo, than Arco's mystics only having elemental randoms.)

The priest side of TC's mages is definately something of a bonus - if your pretender dies, you easily bring him back. Caelum may well have to build a bunch of seraphine priests all of a sudden, which are of dubious value unless menaced by undead.

Giving CM's an extra random (and increased cost) might help, imo.

Thing is, T'ien C'hi has better troops than Caelum, but yes, it's mages are lacking (except Spring and Autumn).

Frankly, if Water was improved the way it should be then TC's mages would be a lot more viable. That's how I'd like to seem them fixed, especially rather than nerfing Caelum.

[Zen]

The Panther said:
Has anybody actually played an MP game with 10 or more players in which T'ien Ch'i won? Anybody?

Yes. I have.

Can you imangine the odds you would get in Las Vegas betting on T'ien Ch'i as compared to Caelum in a 10 player game with people of approximately equal skills?

Probably not very good, I wouldn't start betting until I saw the starting positions. Your nation and Pretender set the stage on which the game is played, and while certainly some nations have the upper hand on this dynamic it doesn't mean that TC 'can't' win, but that it has to have strength in the areas to circumvent their weaknesses (Diplomacy, Timing, etc).

[Arryn]

Zen said:

Yes. I have.

Were you the TC player in that game? Another important consideration is whether the game was a blitz (VP) game or something more normal?

[Zen]

Arryn said:
Were you the TC player in that game?

Yes, but that hardly matters.

Another important consideration is whether the game was a blitz (VP) game or something more normal?

It was a normal slugathon. No house rules and Lasted into turn 70something. How it was won, was exactly what I stated, a combination of Timing and Diplomacy. As well as cold-hearted unmerciful morale killing blitz attacks that would render an opponent stunned while not flipping my hand too early. I purposfully left terrain undefended so that neighboring smallish nations would gobble up useless provinces or commit forces that could then be targeted by my quickstrike brigades.

MoTW are great for stopping Ghost Riders even chained in high numbers.

[Chazar]

I think Caelum's main bonus is the possibility to fly: You can quickly respond to any threat that arises unforseen! This is a huge strategical advantage. I'd like to see a non-magic all-flying nation and see how that would work out...

[Peter Ebbesen]

Zen said:
MoTW are great for stopping Ghost Riders even chained in high numbers.

Ah, the Quickened Banishment brigade. It is always tough on undead.

MotW is a favourite unit of mine:

1. It is cheap: 100 gold
2. Has a low upkeep due to being sacred
3. Can research: one of the best researchers in the game for its cost and upkeep.
4. Can call god
5. Can cast quickness
6. Can cast frozen heart
7. Can cast banishment
8. Is affected by blessings (E4 is always really nice on mages (and priests if facing the risen dead)[/i])
9. Sometimes comes with a useful random)

It is like having a sage-lite, who can also double as combat mage, holy inquisition, or banishment specialist when needed. You can never have too many MotWs.

I like Caelum's Seraph too - a very good unit and the quickness/lightning combination (or wrathful skies) can be deadly - but even with the added strength of strategic flight it comes up short compared to the MotW in overall usefulness because of low versatility.

But, then again, I am a player who prefers versatility over specialisation as I prefer to have a host of less powerful options available rather than one or two powerful ones, so I guess it is natural that I like T'ien C'hi despite their weaknesses. I much prefer to keep the opposition guessing as to what I will field next rather than having them know what it is through a strong, known, one or two-dimensional threat. Sometimes it pays off (the opposition tries to counter all your possible options thus diverting resources, the opposition fails to block one of the less obvious strategies), sometimes it does not (the opposition bulldozes me with its brute force approach).

Hmm. Began as an answer concerning the MotW and ended up a paean to versatility. These things happen.