more SnA questions by tool - which of these do you like?

[djtool]

hiya

well in my quest to evolve some kind of working (and hopefully winning) strategy with SnA i'd like y'alls opinion on these basic pretender setups.

None of these have He/Co or Death scales because i'm trying to save every penny I can. Luck would either be at 2 or 3...the scales really aren't what i'm debating here. Dominion Ratings would vary a *little but none lower than 5.

Statue - Astral 5: this would be to start casting acashic record, which is good. Gems for SnA very important, very good. Having to spend all that time researching conj. 5, bad.

Cyclops - Earth 10 (maybe take a HE or Death scale for water 1): This would be for the bless effect of reinvigoration 5 (i think). I don't have a clear understanding (in my minds eye) how much of an impact this would have, but there aren't many items that have more then reinvig 5...so it seems pretty nice. This guy also functions as a pretty good SC 'cause his starting armor value is 29 and once you hit evoc4 you can crank out the blade winds. easy to get a luck coin and robe of shadows too.

Vamp queen - standard SC setup: not much to be said about this.

to all who post thanks in advance.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by djtool:
Statue - Astral 5: this would be to start casting acashic record, which is good. Gems for SnA very important, very good. Having to spend all that time researching conj. 5, bad.

Conj-5 is also Bane Lords. Bane Lords good. I think the Masters of the Deads may be able to use them?

Acashic Record *IS* expensive, though, and doesn't pay off that well unless you're awash in astrals or searching high-magic terrains.

Cyclops - Earth 10 (maybe take a HE or Death scale for water 1): This would be for the bless effect of reinvigoration 5 (i think). I don't have a clear understanding (in my minds eye) how much of an impact this would have, but there aren't many items that have more then reinvig 5...so it seems pretty nice. This guy also functions as a pretty good SC 'cause his starting armor value is 29 and once you hit evoc4 you can crank out the blade winds. easy to get a luck coin and robe of shadows too.

The Cyclops also has an obnoxious habit of losing his only eye on turn 4. Be sure to get ready to switch him for tramplin' shoes, since he's going to spend the better part of the game flailing around blindly.

[djtool]

[quote]shoes, since he's going to spend the better part of the game flailing around blindly. [quote]

that image made me laugh.

i'm more interested in the impact the reinvig 5 would have on my mages then the cyclops as a SC.

[archaeolept]

reinvig 5 is ok but nowhere near as nice as getting a caster spamming relief, just to put it in perspective.

really, going earth 10 for that is just not worth it, and the cyclops will likely end up blind, so...

I don't want to crush anyones dreams about playing S&A in a competitive enviroment. But you are going to run into a situation where it doesn't matter how well your mages reinvigorate, they will die ;/

The only way to prevent this from happening (sometimes) is to have an Astral King. In order to do this, it is best to pick something that is semi-mobile that can equip as many of the path enhancing items as it can.

The other option is to completely ignore your minduelbait mages and focus on your slower mages or less impressive Master's of the Way.

Either way, the forced turmoil leaves you in a bad place and your mages don't do much for you.

I love T'ien Ch'i, and I love Spring and Autumn, but competitive without serious amounts of luck, they are not.

[Demosthenes]

IME the Cyclops will be OK if he has Air 2 for Mistform, Mirror Image and Air Shield. If you beeline Alteration you can get there on Turn 4 usually, and maybe you could have forged a helm and a couple swords of sharpness by then.

I like the Axes better but the swords have higher defense and if you head out-a-ramblin' with only Alteration 2, i.e. no mistform, then the defense is the only thing between you and blindness.

[tinkthank]

Although I am not a competetitive or very good player, I like S&A a lot (and won at least a couple of small relaxed MPs with them), and maybe this might help:

1. There are tons of reingiv items out there, just tons. Your CMs wont need expensive Boots of Quickness since they will cast it anyhow, so give them cheapo Boots o' the Messenger, which is easy. My personal fav is Rainbow Armor, but this may be hard to get in MP (because it will be hard to get Forge O Ancients up). Getting FoA up will, however, not be hard with an earth pretender. I get 4 earth, that is usually enough for me.

2. My feeling is that S&A has the best searchers in the game. I rely on them to get the sites going. Acashic is great, but expensive, and I want those gems for Starshine Skullcaps. Maybe save some more points, spend it on luck and maybe growth for the extra bit of cash and magic, and just search a lot?

An earth 10 may be fun, but is it worth it in a competetive environment?

[Boron]

hm what do you think on the normal national troops of tien chi s&a ?
i like their 2 supermages very much the master of 5 elements and the celestial master .
as tinktank said the master of five elements especially is probably the best standard site searcher

but your national troops are just poor and your best leader is the nobleman with only leadership 25. so you are forced to expand via a combat pretender mainly i think .
forced to take turmoil 1 hurts .
you have most likely the most cost effective mages as tien chi s&a but your national troops are just plain bad .
so in the beginning your opponents will expand in general 1,5-2x as fast as you .
and if you are forced to go to combat in early game i think your chances are very bad .
1. you will have only 1/2 - 3/4 of your opponents money income .
2. if you face opponents with strong national troops ( e.g. man , ulm , marignon ) your normal troops even backed up with lots of mages will have no chance .
your pretender can only be in 1 province / turn so almost every of your opponents should be able to bleed you out in early-midgame .

your 2 special kinds of demons which you can summon from the beginning are perhaps thought to counter that but the problem is only celestial masters can summon them and only 1 / summon so you won't have many in early game and in midgame there are already probably better alternatives .
if you would get a bunch of 5 per summon of them like celestial soldiers with standard tien chi they were perhaps more useful.

[Vynd]

I would not make Ascashic Record a pirority with S&A. It seems to me that one of S&A's biggest strengths is the site searching ability of their mages. Going for Ascashic will pretty much ignore this.

I like the idea of taking a combat pretender like a VQ. Use the Pretender to capture territory and spend your limited funds on mages. Use a few mages for site searching and/or site searching spells, and pour the rest into research. Then use your hopefully strong gem income to make up for your poor money income by using lots of summoning spells. If you give your Pretender reasonably strong magic in two or three paths then he can make some magic boosting items for your low level mages. And then your low level mages can forge lots of equipment to slap on Bane Lords and the like.

[djtool]

your only consisten magic lvl 2 is water. Other wise your searching with magic levels of one unless you have a ton of mages and are lucky enough to have a lvl 2 for each discipline. I suppose you could replace those nice mages you need for research with master of the ways if you fail to find a library early on. however I find it hard to balance purchasing mages and setting up a castle or two.