Exalted Mod

[Scott Hebert]

Greetings, fellow forumites. This is to announce the start of the Exalted mod for Dominions II. This mod is based off of White Wolf's Exalted setting, and will feature high-powered commanders. If magic items could be modded, I would have all of the artifacts from Exalted in as well, but that will have to wait.

Now, for those that know Exalted, I had a question. Should I base the 'nations' off of the type of Exalt (Terrestrial, Lunar, Solar, etc.), or should I base it off of the actual nations that exist in Exalted (Nexus, Lookshy, Haslanti League, Coral, etc.)? I lean towards the former, because the Celestial Exalted at least would have to be relegated to the status of Hero if the latter approach were taken.

Now, a separate question for everyone, as this pertains to 'balance'. How much would you charge for a FSHH?????? mage? I figure somewhere in the 450-500g range. This would be the 'big draw' of the Solar Twilights.

Some 'basics' for those who may not be familiar with the Exalted setting.

You have the Terrestrial Exalted. These are people who inherit the power of one of the five Elemental Dragons (standard 4 + Wood). The Terrestrial Exalted run the 'Realm'. I figured for the 'Realm' nation, there would be at least five types of Terrestrials, one for each element. Probably 2 in their Element (so a Fire Terrestrial would be Fire-2), one random (with maybe that random restricted to Element), and a Holy 2 priest (all of the Exalted are going to be at least Sacred... and probably at least all level-2 Priests). I would make one Commander for the 'Terrestrial Exalt', but I don't how to restrict a Random-2 to one of the four elements OR Nature. I figure these will run around 150-200g. However much they cost, the other Exalted will run about 3 times that much, because that is about the power ratio in the Exalted setting.

The other Exalted are the Solar Exalted (Chosen of the Sun, really nasty against 'creatures of darkness' and overall badasses), the Lunar Exalted (think glamoured Werewolves, but much stronger), the Sidereal Exalted (Masters of Fate and Martial Arts), and the Abyssal Exalted (deathknights).

Hrm. Well, I'll post up a preliminary mod sometime tomorrow so that you can see where I currently am at, and you can comment on any problems you foresee with it.

Comments appreciated.

Scott

[Slygar]

yikes... a 10 pick mage

Sounds cool though.

[Scott Hebert]

Well, 8-pick + Holy-2 Priest. But rather, yeah. All but the appropriate 'priest' Caste of each type of Exalted will probably only be Sacred, but still, they're supposed to be the most powerful Mages.

Scott

[Duncanish]

First off, the mod sounds damn good. Exalted has turned into my favourite WW setting, since it has nothing to do with the WoD stuff (even though they hinted at it in all the advertisements). I'm also looking forward to see the sprites you use.

Second, I definitely think you should use your first idea, one nation per rather than the different regions. You'd probably end up with several nations with repeat units (like Lookshy and the Realm). A 10-pick mage does sound a bit staggering, but it's also appropriate. I'm a bit conflicted on that part. Also: Sidereals. How are you going to mod the "masters of fate" portion? All having Luck?

[Blitz]

Now, a separate question for everyone, as this pertains to 'balance'. How much would you charge for a FSHH?????? mage? I figure somewhere in the 450-500g range. This would be the 'big draw' of the Solar Twilights.

While such a mage would be easy prey in MP due to magic deul, I would caution you against including such a powerful unit. However, there are guidelines and you can extrapolate to get a rough idea what you should charge for the unit.

Mages, first path
Lvl 1: +30
Lvl 2: +90
Lvl 3: +150

second path
Lvl 1: +20
Lvl 2: +60
Lvl 3: +100

third path
Lvl 1: +10
Lvl 2: +30
Lvl 3: +50

I calculate your unit like this:

Base leader cost = 50 gold
First path - 6 random = 300 points
Second and third paths = 30 points
Priest level 2 = 20 points

So 400 points, 600 if it's sacred... but I'd advise against sucha unit in a mod. Up to you though.

[Tris]

To get the flavour right Exhalted need to be able to deal with TONS of normal troops, without special equipment. I'd suggest lowering the power of all the infantry units, and making those multi-path spell casters powerful fighters as well.

Could easily be an unbalanced mod, but I think it would be fun.

One problem I can see is that Solar exhalts are supposed to be just reemerging, and mainly sneak around because there are just SO many Terrestrial Exalts that known Solars are hunted (just not as much as they used to be).

[Vicious Love]

Pshaw, game balance is for the weak and sickly.
Even in the age of the Ascension Wars, the Exalted weren't MEANT to be balanced, and doing this to them seriously impairs their style.
Go overboard. Then make the Exalted nation a theme which costs 800 or so points, ensuring only impossible difficulty AI, players in insanely high point value modded games, etc. actually get to play them*.
Nothing quite as fun as having 16 player-controlled nations go up against one Exalted nation(Probably also player-controlled) in a desperate bid to make the world a saner, not quite so manga-Earthdawn-mock-WoD place. Y'know, Paradigm Shift(TM) or whatever.
Besides, if you absolutely must make them a balanced nation like any other, you could always give them an "Exalted --" theme*, and come up with some cliched explanation about how nobody believes in fairies anymore, and so the Exalted aren't anywhere near the 800 point special-scenario-or-ubernation-only juggernaut they once were. Either make them weaker, or weaken an existing, mere mortal nation and compensate by giving them the mostly-endgame-related wildcard that is the Exalted, as insanely expensive capitol-only commanders, or high gem cost national summons, with upkeep.
Go on, you know you want to.


* Well, not a theme, those aren't actually moddable yet... just make each of their pretender Chasses cost base cost+800 points.

** OK, not a theme. You get the idea.

[Vicious Love]

Then again, even if you make them 200 Astral Pearl national summons, the Sidereal will be seriously out of whack out-of-the-box SCs. I mean, insanely high Astral, sacred, luck, twist fate, quickness, magic resistance, attack and defense skills to put pretty much anything else to shame. At only twice the cost of a Doom Horror, that's quite a deal. At the cost of a Doom Horror plus one casting of Gift of Reason, that ain't half bad either.
Hence my original suggestion to forget game balance altogether.
If you want them to be true, full-power exalted without restricting them to special scenarios or throwing balance out the window, I suppose you could make them special heroes, available only at ultrarare special sites(Like the Gray Knights), or only in specific rare special events, or even combinations of events and sites/units.*
Of course, finding one of these sites or getting one of these ultrarare events would still be, in plain terms, an outrageous stroke of luck which wins you the game. A few Dragonblooded, the least smackalicious of the Exalted, could make short work of, say, a fully equipped Heliophagus. Therefore, players are likely to See this sort of workaround as more of an arbitrary, aggravating, random cheat mode sorta thing than an enjoyable gameplay feature.
Erm. Suggestion retracted.

All things considered, I am being kind of pessimistic, though. I'm sure the Exalted can ultimately be balanced, as long as you don't make them a nation like any other. However, unless you drop the Sidereal altogether, I do suspect you're going to have some major headaches preventing The Ultimate SC... then again, the Sidereal aren't supposed to actually work for any nation or fight anything, are they? What if you just made them a truly horrendous special event, like Bogus on PCPs? It's pretty much common knowledge that if the Sidereal ever go to war, it'll be the end of all creation, but one or two doing unpleasant things for unfathomable reasons is definitely acceptable.
With the Sidereal out of the way, everything else CAN be balanced, albeit tricksily. I mean, Lunars would make truly spectacular fighters and stealthy units(Plus a dollop of Nature, and a dash of Astral), but have very little SC potential.

Of course, once you actually start thinking about giving the Exalted a proper niche, rather than making them just like Pangaea, Abysia, Ermor, Marignon, and possibly Caelum combined, you open up a whole new can of worms. The 17 nations in Dom 2 are truly spectacularly balanced, and each has a unique range of strengths and weaknesses. The human nations overlap a little, but are ultimately very, very different, when you get down to it.
What niche could a balanced Exalted nation possibly fill? What disadvantages and, Pretenders help us all, advantages would they have, and how would you preserve the rock-paper-scissors equilibrium?


*I know this can't presently be modded, but at least it's already been done by the devs themselves. We know for a fact that special events can be linked to specific units/sites. Now all we have to do is invest as much effort in modding Dom 2 as the devs invested in creating it in the first place. I motivate, you mod.
Of course, if this actually can be done, the Exalted might make an interesting desperate Last resort for a losing nation. You spend insane amounts of gold and resources on a "Generic Prophecy" immobile, stealthy, noncombatant unit, and every turn, you have a 2% chance of an Exalted appearing to actually fulfill the generic prophecy in your darkest hour.

[Vicious Love]

Duuuude. I may be getting on a tangent here, but am I the only one who sees the awesome potential of a whole line of grotesquely unbalanced modded nations? You can either pit a dozen or so ordinary nations against one, or set two or more up against each other and indulge your overkill fetish. I mean, comparing Sidereal to Doom Horrors, I was reminded of how I find it weird that Dominions has only one type of horror, in a few sizes, when by all rights there should be hundreds of types of 'em. I then realized that one of the few things that could pose a threat to a Cosmic Smackdown nation like East Exaltedonia, other than R'lyeh as it Should Be, would be a Horror touched, Horror controlled nation. Boo-yah!
But I digress...

[Scott Hebert]

I'm glad there's some enthusiasm for the project.

The Solar mod is finished. They replace Marignon, for obvious reasons (or at least, obvious to those who know Exalted). Please don't 'whine' about the graphics, as I don't have a way to modify them yet.

Regarding balance, each Solar costs 450g, and 50 Resources. They all have FS???, with two randoms in Elemental and one in Sorcery. This is to prevent big gains in Death or Blood, which are definitely not thematic for them. They all have a base 30HPs and recuperation. They are also all Sacred. Differences by caste follow:

Dawn: Fear(+15), Standard(+15), Leadership 75
Zenith: HHHH, Awe(+0), Leadership 125
Twilight: Extra pick in Elemental, and Sorcery; only 25 HPs, Regenerate 10%, Forge Bonus 25%, Research bonus: 4, Healer 10%, Leader(all) 10. (Yes, they're big. They're your best Researchers. Good luck affording them.)
Night: Stealthy (+30), Assassin, Spy, 25 Leadership. These are possibly the best Assassins in the game, but they cost 4 times the amount of an Empoisoner.
Eclipse: Awe (+6), All Survivals, Sailing, good leadership.

The Eclipse is Mounted, the rest are on foot. The Twilight is the worst combatant, then Zenith, then Eclipse, then Night, and finally Dawn (best).

The only other commanders you get are the 'basic' independent commander, and the 'basic' independent priest. Your troops are Broadsword HI, Spear/Javelin LI, Ring Mail Archers, Bow LC, and Lance/Broadsword HC (which may go away). You start with a 'basic' commander, and 20 HI. In an initial test, it doesn't seem that much different than other nations, and I'm playing on Rich.

Next in the 'pipe' is the Lunars. I _do_ wish I could restrict randoms to only specific magics. If I could, I would remove the Elemental/Sorcery distinction from the randoms on the Solars, and instead say 'anything but Death/Blood'.

My only other question is how do I get this uploaded? I don't really have anywhere to put it Online.

Scott