R'lyeh Strategies

[PrinzMegaherz]

IMHO Lobo Guards are some of the best arrow fodders you can get. They are amazingly cheap and never rout. R'lyeh is a good candidate for sloth scale, with lobo guards and illithids using few ressources.
Early expension works especially well with Lobo guards, it does not matter if you lose some of them, and 40-50 lobo guards will beat even 80+ triton troopers because their morale never breaks (unlike that of the tritons).

[Scott Hebert]

Something I found out recently is the results of Void Summoning varies with the Luck scale. Therefore, I see Luck+3 as almost required for any Rlyeh strategy that plans to use the Void Gate.

This leads to two other benefits. First, you get your Heroes very quickly. This is good, because at least two of them (the Aboleth and the Traitor King) are powerful mages. The other benefit is, if you can get a Nature/Blood mage, you can use Crossbreeding. As you point out, Rlyeh makes better use of fodder than most.

A Sloth scale is possible, but I generally don't take it. I like the Meteorite Guards too much for that. My normal preference is to take a Temperature scale, since they don't affect underwater.

As for Voice of Tiamat, while nice, I prefer using Acashic for those who can easily use it. And Rlyeh is arguably the people with the easiest time of it.

For me, I see Rlyeh's bane in Pangaea. Even their Satyrs have like a 13 MR, which sucks for the illithids.

Anyway, just my 2 yen.

[Belcarl]

R�lyeh
I have read some sporadic thoughts and strategy guides to R�lyeh on this forum and since I like the nation a lot and would like a discussion on how to improve my game play I post my take on how to play R�lyeh. I have not had much experience with MP, so some of the tactical choices may not be good from an MP perspective. I also tend to play R'lyeh quite magic heavy, since I find them to have excellent astral mages.

Combat.
The main advantage for R�lyeh is the Mindflayers (Illithids) mindbLast attack. Therefore I find the best way to use this advantage is to place different mindflayer Groups at the far rear of the battlefield with orders to Fire. Before them in the middle I place a large force of suicide infantry. In the early game this is Shambler thralls (24 hp, trample) and Meteorite guards (protection 17) grouped with whatever cheap throw away troops that are available, Hybrid and Hybrid Troopers are very good �throw away� troops. For some reasons I haven�t had much success with Hybrid soldiers, perhaps their Protection (12) is too low compared to their costs and Hybrid Troopers. I want to view Hybrid Soldiers as Heavy Infantry, maybe that is my error.

The infantries job is simply to keep the enemy away from the Mindflayers long enough for them to start paralyzing the enemy. Because enemies seldom get to mindflayers I favour normal Illthids before Illthid soldier, they have a 12 dmg mindbLast instead of 10, but don�t have the soldiers high Protection and melee stats. Simply put, R�lyeh is a horde army with heavy artillery.

Mid- and Late game I prefer the infantry section core to be high hitpoints summons instead. Sea kings court (3w Conj 6) and Abomination (4A 2W Conj 9) tend to do the job well, and can also be summoned underwater. Also, if you have had any luck with void summons a few otherness and other strange creatures fits nicely into the infantry section. Later on one also needs to take enemy fliers and flanking cavalry into consideration. Putting one smaller block of infantry at the rear with orders to guard and expanding the large infantry block into 3 different large parts that covers the with of the battlefield usually solves this.

R�lyehs biggest problem when it comes to armies tend to be that their throw away infantry block needs to be replaced a lot, since it usually takes high casualties (well, that is kind of the plan�). Free troopers like hybrid in coastal fort provinces helps, but it�s not until the mid or end game, when high hp summons are available, that this problem is reduced. Therefore units with some heat, cold or poison area effect are best avoided, since they usually hurt R�lyeh more then their enemies in the long run. (An infantry block of only Summer lions or Devils is doable but relies on magic paths that isn�t R�lyehs strength.). I also find R�lyeh to have bigger problems with other horde armies like Ermor and Pangea, since R�lyeh rely on their Illthids to paralyze the enemy. If their commanders have low magic resistance R�lyeh can make short work of them with mindbLasts and Thaumatergy, but that is kind of universal for all armies.

Priorities
Early game R�lyeh has 3 priorities apart from the usual expansion plans to get gold, resources etc.

1)Get Thaumatergy 1 and a Stargazer with 2 in astral magic to be able to cast Returning, then give him two astral pearls. Set 'Cast returning' on battle orders, and start your void summons.

2)Get a coastal province and build a fort and temple if there is an easy opportunity. With a positive dominion this will give you free hybrid troops.

3) Research Conj 4 to get Voice of Tiamat for easy magic site locations underwater.

Mid game you need to make up your mind on what kind of strategy you are going to use in expanding into enemy territory, will you use summoned armies for infantry blocks (Vine Ogres, Drakes, Trolls etc), or use spellcasters in battle. Both options are ofcourse doable in the end game, but they require different research paths. For summoned armies Conjuration or Blood paths would seem the best. But R�lyeh have powerful astral mages and spells like Soul slay, gateway and enslave mind in the Thaumatergy path is tempting. Evocation 1 for star fires and Alteration 2 for Quickness are also important if you are sending your Starspawns into battle. A side note is that Blood magic, although viable, tend to be harder to use with R�lyeh then other nations because blood slaves cant be hunted underwater and Starspawns seldom start with Blood magic. Since R�lyeh tend to use a lot of throw away troops Area effect evocation spells (fireball etc) tend to kill as many of your own troops as it kills enemies.

Commanders and Equipment.
Since Illthid commanders tend to stay behind their troops and use Mind bLasts melee weapons are seldom used. However some kind of protection from enemy missile and magic fire could be useful. I have had some success in mid game with making heavily equipted Traitor princes and using them on the flanks. I am however unsure if the time and resources making their equipment couldn�t have been spent on summoning more troops instead.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Bayushi Tasogare:
Something I found out recently is the results of Void Summoning varies with the Luck scale. Therefore, I see Luck+3 as almost required for any Rlyeh strategy that plans to use the Void Gate.

This leads to two other benefits. First, you get your Heroes very quickly. This is good, because at least two of them (the Aboleth and the Traitor King) are powerful mages. The other benefit is, if you can get a Nature/Blood mage, you can use Crossbreeding. As you point out, Rlyeh makes better use of fodder than most.

A Sloth scale is possible, but I generally don't take it. I like the Meteorite Guards too much for that. My normal preference is to take a Temperature scale, since they don't affect underwater.

As for Voice of Tiamat, while nice, I prefer using Acashic for those who can easily use it. And Rlyeh is arguably the people with the easiest time of it.

For me, I see Rlyeh's bane in Pangaea. Even their Satyrs have like a 13 MR, which sucks for the illithids.

Anyway, just my 2 yen.

I used to play with luck +3, but have since stopped... I haven't noticed much difference in my Void Summons or getting heroes. I'm sure it has an effect... but not enough to be worth all those points. Luck 0 seems to do me fine.

I think Magic +3 is far more wise place to put points. For two reasons:

1) It makes Star Children actually useful for something (85 Gold, 6 Research), as they were nerfed pretty hard when paralyze got fixed
2) It lowers MR in your dominion, making mindbLasts more effective

[tinkthank]

Thanks for these tips.

Mind me asking these questions?

- Temperature scales don't have affect underwater? Really? Sure? I didnt know that.

- Wait for a 2-astral Starspawn, really? I sort of give him guards. When you get those immobile thingies (forget name) they make great guards, since you cant do a heck of a lot with them otherwise (or are they amphib? then you could gate them. Forget). I never thought of wait-for-returning, however.

- I still have a hard time with scales. I like meteroite guards, and thought

- Those shambler tramplers: I dont have success with them. They die way too fast, be it to arrows later or tritons sooner. HOw do you use them? Id like to use them, but it seems I never have enough money for what I feel I get out of them....

- crabs -- anyone use them?

- pretender: I am almost always tempted to go air, just so I can make some Staffs of Storms, and maybe for a 20% bless air shield. I think a staff of Storms is a great item coming naturally to Ryleh, since they can still mind bLast in a storm. Also, with an Air random pick and a crafter who can make + winged helmet + bag o winds, you can have a mage cast Arrow Fend in your armies, and I am addicted to this spell with every nation I play. That may be why I fail to succeed, however -- any thoughts on this?

- I also like magic scale -- but that leaves me nothing for Order, which I feel obligated to take for those expensive units. Is there any "official confirmation" (from a dev?) that Void Summoning relies on Luck?

- Illitid Soldiers I am sometimes tempted to get in the beginning because those darn tritons are so fast. I just wish they didnt have that damn Trident and instead had their great lifedraining tentacles. Any thoughts on that?

- Anyone use bless effects? I figure a Water-9 could be interesting and sort of comes naturally, but have never tried it.

Thanks much

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
- Temperature scales don't have affect underwater? Really? Sure?

Sure.

- Wait for a 2-astral Starspawn, really?

Don't wait, use what you got. If you're lucky enough to recruit one, keep him in the capital to replace your current summoner when you lose him - or when he loses his mind.

I sort of give him guards. When you get those immobile thingies (forget name) they make great guards, since you cant do a heck of a lot with them otherwise (or are they amphib? then you could gate them. Forget). I never thought of wait-for-returning, however.

Guards are OK. Returning is better, except you can't cast it when feebleminded, so you can still use guards with Returning scripted, with a gotcha: the bodyguards will be lost if the summoner actually 'returns'. Ritual of Returning + Returning is 99% safe for the summoner, and you don't need guards in that case.

- I still have a hard time with scales. I like meteroite guards, and thought

... and thought... what?

- Those shambler tramplers: I dont have success with them. They die way too fast, be it to arrows later or tritons sooner. HOw do you use them?

I don't.

- crabs -- anyone use them?

I do. They're great vs Atlantis.

- pretender: I am almost always tempted to go air, just so I can make some Staffs of Storms,

I do just the same.

you can have a mage cast Arrow Fend in your armies, and I am addicted to this spell with every nation I play. That may be why I fail to succeed, however -- any thoughts on this?

Arrow Fend is one of the best battle enchantments. I can't see why it would prevent you to succeed.

Is there any "official confirmation" (from a dev?) that Void Summoning relies on Luck?

I've never seen any official confirmation, but I'm strongly inclined to think they're unrelated.

- Illitid Soldiers I am sometimes tempted to get in the beginning because those darn tritons are so fast.

Fodder (lobo guards or lesser Void summons), and either Crab Hybrids or the scale mail/trident infantry is what I use. Illithid support also helps, but it means less shock troops to dispatch the tritons. Of course, nothing beats tritons of your own to beat tritons. A communion-backed Poison Ward on your better shock troops is also nice to have.

I just wish they didnt have that damn Trident and instead had their great lifedraining tentacles. Any thoughts on that?

Life drain is great, but tridents are also excellent weapons. At least they avoid your Soldiers to impale themselves on poisoned spears and accumulate damage.

- Anyone use bless effects? I figure a Water-9 could be interesting and sort of comes naturally, but have never tried it.

Water-9 is easily affordable and very nice to have on Greater Othernesses, but not required. A bit of air and/or earth magic (3-4) is more useful in the long term.

[tinkthank]

Ah, thank you.
I forgot to finish my sentence, excuse me smoked too much -- I thought meteroite guards would be worth the production points, but maybe Im wrong.

Nice to see, however, that I am not the only Arrow Fend addict out there.

Argh, more people saying Luck helps summons and Luck doesnt help summons. ARgh.

Maybe I dont have success because I either get greedy/panicky and think: "quick, run to land while the indies are still for the taking and build castles!" or because I still go down to tritons or because I still get my illithids killed or because I (foolishly?) purchase those armored Illithids or because I foolishly forget my fodder or because I use my mages to search instead of cast those search spells (I have *never* used them, any of them, ever, on any nation! I think that is because I suck, videlect: I play very conservatively and instead conquering province for province for province, I usually get a province + wait/search/send for reinforcements/purchase mercs turn, repeat, so I am slow. And I suppose I research wrong things too....)

Uh sorry for the ramble. Thanks much for the help.

[Karacan]

Smoking is hazardous to your train of thought. *ahem*

That said, I believe there's a relation between Summoning and Luck. I appear to get a higher success rate at a higher Luck dominion, but since I usually always take luck 2 or 3 (because me likes), I might be subjectively biased.

I also like and use Shambler Thralls. They're quite good as a secondary attack force. Place your fodder to the front, and your Shamblers a few spaces behind with attack closest. The fodder takes the pain, the Shambler dish out. This is great against both tritons and barbarians.
Just keep them away from evil archers.

That's not to say I know anything about playing R'lyeh, but they were the first race I won Dom II against impossible AI with, completely without constructing anything.

[Yossar]

Crab hybrids seems to work the best for absorbing the initial triton attack, especially if you've taken sloth and can't afford many meteorite guards. Good protection and hps. Lobo guards would work but you'd have to keep replacing them.

[tinkthank]

Mind me asking another question?

When do you folks head for land? I am always tempted to do this very very early, because I feel
- if I do it later the free indy land may be gone and it is too crowded to get a foothold
- I can start getting freebie fodder from those coastal castles early
- gem sites are better on land (?)

But I feel I do this too soon too, because
- I always get licked on land

What do you people think?

Thanks much