Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Scattered Thoughts On Modding Costs

Official Unit Guidelines are sparse, especially wrt playbalancing and costs. Here follow some random definitions, theories, equations, and examples. I'm not married to them, I just want to start discussion and get some acceptable standards set by the community.


Definitions
===========
Two separate things: Gold, Resources.
-Gold determines how good the meat is.
-Resources determines how good the equipment is.

Three types of units: Soldiers, Monsters, Commanders.

-Soldiers are members of the Nation's race; e.g. humans, lizardmen, etc.
-Monsters are greater than the acceptable norms of the Nation's race. E.g. vampires are stronger than humanly possible, and steal life.
-Commanders are charismatic units, capable of leading.

For discussion purposes I will use Humans as the example National race, and Light Infantry as the unit to base unit for comparison. Statistics follow.

Lt Inf Militia HV Inf
hp---10------8------10
st---10------8------10
att--10------8------10
def--12------8------12
mor--10------8------10
mr---10------8------10
pre--10-----10------10
arm--09------8------13
dge--03-----03------06
gold-10-----07------10
res--10-----07------16
------
Militia stats run 20% less on the skill side, except precision. They are cost 30% less gold. Their armor provides ~10% less protection, and their weapon is the same for dge and both have the useful repel ability. They do not have javelins. They cost 30% less resources (metal, leather, production time and skill).

-2hp -2st -2att -2def -2mor -2mr = -3gold
-1prot -javelin = -3res

Heavy Infantry stats are the same on the skill side, and they cost the same gold wise. Resource-wise, HI have 35% better armor, and much better weapons, but no repel and no javelins. Resource cost is 60% higher.

+4 pnts armor; +3 pnts weapon -javelin = +6res. That seems to make sense. A javelin is worth 1res. 1pnt armor is 1res. 1pt wep dge is 1res.


Conclusion is that we have light, normal, and heavy units. Light units cost disproportionately less. Normal units cost normal amounts. Heavy units cost disproportionately more. So far we have:

Light------militia
normal-----lt infantry, hv infantry
heavy------none yet, let's examine one

Black Knight
hp------15
st------13
att-----12
def-----09
mor-----15
mr------09
pre-----10
arm-----24
dge-----20/8/6
gold----60
res-----70
+5hp +3st +2att -1def +5mor -1mr = +50 gold
+14arm +11dge +lance = +60res

Ok, here's my theory for unit stat cost in gold.
==================================
7-9 pnts skill = 0.5X cost
10-12 pnts skill = 1X cost
13-15 pnts skill = 1.5X cost
16-19 pnts skill = 2X cost
20-30 pnts skill = 4X cost (not normally possible for humans?)
==================================

E.g. New Unit Elite HV Infantry. All stats the same except ST 12 and ATT 12 would cost 10 +2 +2
= 14gold.
E.g. New Unit Super Elite HV Infantry. St 15, Att 15, HP 15; 10 + 5X1.5 +5X1.5 +5X1.5 = 33gold.

Resources should behave similarly, but on a different metric. Here's my theory for unit resource cost:
====================
0-8 light X0.75
9-11 average X1
12-20 heavy X1.5
21-30 super X2
====================

We'll test it on Black Knights:
10res +14armX2 +11dgeX2 +lance = 70res
10res +28+22+X=70res A Lance seems to be worth 10res. Which makes sense.

New Unit Example--The fabled Steel Battalion. An incredibly elite Super Heavy Infantry, full of weight lifting 7 foot tall supermen who push the envelope of humanity. Here are this proud group's stats:
hp 18
st 18
att 18
def 18
mor 18
mr 18
pre 10
arm 26
dge 20

This looks like standard stats for the people who used to bring pre-rolled characters and try to get into my DnD games. Anyways, let's add Conan here up and estimate the unit cost.
10gold +8stX2 +8hpX2 +8attX2 +8defX2 +8morX2 +8mrX2 = 106gold
10res +16armorX2 +17dgeX2 = 76res

That sounds about right. Any comments?

This does not count in special powers like repel, lance, regenerate, ethereal, magic dge, poison dge, fire aura, fear, awe, etc. I imagine these could work similarly:

Fear Costs
1-4 2gold/pnt
5-9 3gold/pnt
10-14 4gold/pnt
15-19 5gold/pnt
E.g. If we give Conan above a Fear aura of 15, we would add 4X2+4X3+4X4+1X5=41gold

Ethereal units are special. They know it. They charge extra gold for their abilities. 10% more.

The same for Regeneration. Regen 10 = 10% more. Regen 20 = 20% more. Etc.

I'll write more later on commanders and monsters. I'm interested in others' thoughts.

[PDF]

Interesting ideas. A tip about resources costs :
The pinned "Equipment list" thread shows the resource cost of each weapon and piece of armor.
In game the formula for resource cost of unit is mainly "sum of equipment costs", but is adjusted/multiplied or mounted or giant sized troops.
This resource cost per equipment is important because protection is not all : various armor types give more or less encumbrance for the same prot value, shields give defense, etc ..

[Teraswaerto]

While such guidelines can be useful, cost is also affected by thematic considerations and overall balance for the nation being modded.

[Peter Ebbesen]

I would have to disagree on the gold/meat, resources/equipment split in one important Category: Magical Equipment.

Any equipment that you would normally have to forge to equip a leader with, but which comes as part and parcel with a unit, should hike up the gold cost, and the higher magic level needed and the higher construction level, the higher the cost.

E.g. equipping units with Black Steel items should increase the gold cost by very little - they require E1 and L0 construction to forge, but lesser or greater magic items should cost considerably more.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
Any equipment that you would normally have to forge to equip a leader with, but which comes as part and parcel with a unit, should hike up the gold cost, and the higher magic level needed and the higher construction level, the higher the cost.

IMO, both the gold and the resource cost should be increased, not just gold.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:
Fear Costs
1-4 2gold/pnt
5-9 3gold/pnt
10-14 4gold/pnt
15-19 5gold/pnt
E.g. If we give Conan above a Fear aura of 15, we would add 4X2+4X3+4X4+1X5=41gold

This is very cheap for the fear effect, considering that the only purchasable units with it are death mages, and they don't get fear +0 until they are around death 5. Fear 15 is Prince of Death level fear, with an area of effect of 15, and an added difficulty of three to the morale check. That kind of ability is worth a huge amount of gold, since every single unit with fear will cause those morale checks.

[Bossemanden]

On the fear effect:
I feel that the fear effect should cost somewhere between 2x-4x the amount stated by Uh-Nu-Buh. That is:
1-4 4-8 gold/pnt
5-9 6-12 gold/pnt
10-14 8-16 gold/pnt
15-19 10-20 gold/pnt

So in this example a unit with fear 15 (fear (+10)) should cost from 150 to 300 gold extra.

These kind of units are almost gamebreakers if in large numbers. The pricing should reflect that.

Edit: The reason I�m using a range and not a fixed figure is that mods should be open to general balancing and also I�m not sure exactly how much the "correct" amount would be.

[ February 28, 2004, 23:33: Message edited by: Bossemanden ]

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Good points everybody. I'll revise the tables to reflect this, plus add some new guidelines on magic items, etc. I think I might have to make this into "The Unofficial Unit Mod Guide".

What does everyone think of the "official" rule on holy units? That it raises their unit cost by 50%? I think that is a bit high, myself.

Sacred gives +50% cost in Gold. It's a good rule, unless there is a good reason for it to be broken (aka, thematic or balance reason).

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Reworked Tables, plus some additions for your perusal and comments. One of the things I vacillate on is a fixed fee or a rate. E.g. Amphibian--should it cost 5gp, or should it cost 10% of the unit's base cost? The ability is important, and the more powerful the unit, the more important being an amphibian is.... Which is better for game balance?

Gold based on Skills (hp, st, etc.)
==================================
7-9 pnts skill = 0.5X cost (weak human)
10-12 pnts skill = 1X cost (avge human, weak monster)
13-15 pnts skill = 1.5X cost (elite human, average monster)
16-19 pnts skill = 2X cost (super elite human, above average monster)
20-29 pnts skill = 4X cost (super man, elite monster)
30-40 pnts skill = 6X cost (elite monster nobility)
41+ = 8X cost (elite monster royalty)
==================================


Resources (based on normal equipment)
======================
0-8 light X0.75
9-11 average X1.00
12-20 heavy X1.50
21-29 super X2.00
30-40 amazing X3.00
41+ insane X5.00
======================


Fear Costs
======================
1-4 6gold/pnt (undead lord, minor demon, necromancer)
5-9 9gold/pnt (undead king, med demon, high level necromancer)
10-14 12gold/pnt (major demon, psionic thing from beyond)
15-19 15gold/pnt (demon nobility, major gibbering horror from beyond)
20+ 20gold/pnt (world-destroying menace all pretenders should band up against)
======================


Ethereal
======================
10% more gold
======================


Regeneration
======================
X% X% more gold (werewolf has regen 10%, Tarasque has 60%)
======================


Resistance (fire, cold, poison, shock)
======================
1-25 flat 3 gold per resistance
26-50 flat 6 gold
51-75 flat 9 gold
76-100 flat 12 gold

e.g. unit with fire/cold res of 25%/25%, costs +6 more than its base.

Mounted
======================
2 gold
======================


Animal
======================
0
======================


Amphibian
======================
20% more gold
======================


Aquatic
======================
0
======================


Pooramphibian
======================
10% more gold
======================


Flying
======================
5 gold
======================


neednoteat
======================
5 gold
======================


heal
======================
I am not sure what this does. Heal unit only, or heal all units in stack?
======================


Heat
======================
5 gold
======================


Cold
======================
5 gold
======================


Trample
======================
5 gold
======================


Immobile
======================
-5 gold
======================


Immortal
======================
+50%
======================


Iceprot
======================
======================


Poisonarmor
======================
======================


Holy
======================
+33% (official word is +50%, but I think that is too much)
======================


Berserk
======================
1g/pnt (max berserk value should be def value, imho)
======================


Illusion
======================
======================


Stealthy
======================

======================


Spy
======================
======================


Assassin
======================
5gp
======================


Noitem
======================
-5gold
======================


Coldblood
======================
-5gp
======================


Inanimate
======================
5gp
======================


Magicbeing
======================
5gp
======================


Undead
======================
0gp
======================


Blind
======================
5gp
======================


Eyes
======================
1 -5gp
2 0gp
3-4 3gp
5+ 10gp
======================


Eyeloss
======================
5gp
======================


Horrormark
======================
5gp
======================


Entangle
======================
5gp
======================


Fireshield
======================
5gp+1/dge pnt
======================


Poisoncloud
======================

======================

Diseasecloud
======================

======================


Awe
======================
not sure how this is different from fear?
======================