D2 vs Aow:SM

[Elmo]

Can anyone who has played both comment on the main differences between the two game systems? I intend to d/l the D2 demo but I'm interested in what people who have played the full D2 think about it vs AoW:SM. Tried a search or two but didn't find any in-depth comparison. Thanks.

[Elmo]

So there are two differences mentioned so far:

No diplomacy with the AI in D2.
No control of tactical combat in D2.

One similarity:

Weak AI.

Anyone else have something for comparison to help me decide whether to get D2 or not?

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Bossemanden:
I have seen assasinations of my leaders. Both succesfull and otherwise.

What you mentioned earlier was with spells. I was referring to the AI opponents using 'Assassins'... as I have never seen stealthy units used for assassinations. Magic attacks are different types of attacks in my book.

[MythicalMino]

I personally couldn't stand the tactical combat in Shadow Magic....or any other tbs game that has it...I get much more enjoyment out of setting up my units with orders (and spells....what mages should use what spell first) than moving each individual unit move by move. To be honest, unless a Total War type design for tactical combat was used....that would RUIN the game. The largest battle I have participated in was upwards to 400 units....imagine trying to move each individual unit on the field...scary.

Diplomacy....I would like to see. BUT, at the same time, it seems not as important to me as I would have thought it would be...

As far as the AI goes....it really isn't even as bad as some of the ppl are making it out to be. Sure, there can be improvements. BUT, I have seen 110+ armies plowing through my provinces, and these armies have included summoned creatures, Heavy Infantry, Cavalry of different types, and other race-specific monsters. The AI does better on larger maps, with more AI's involved....The AI seems to not be able to handle what ppl call Super Combatants (a unit, usually a God, that is so overpowered with items, magic, ect ect, that nothing can stop him). There is an EASY player made fix for that though, just don't use Super Combatants. For a person to complain about how Super Combatants ruin the SP function of the game, but continues to use them, baffles me. The AI will not "build" Super Combatants....so, if you don't want an unfair advantage, don't you use it either.

I know I am probably going to end up getting flamed for this next statement, but who cares?

Dominions cries out to be played MP....be it network or Play By Email....This is where the game truly shines...and to be honest, what the developers had in mind from the very beginning (Dominions I, designed for them and their friends to play and have fun). Seeing that the main basic design hasn't changed from Dom1 to Dom2, I wouldn't think their main mindset would change either.

Now, I had Shadow Magic....but Dominions completely removed that game from any desire to play. Dominions has an...Epic feeling to it....It literally reminds me of Tolkiens Lord of the Rings in epic scope...There are SO many options just in creating your Pretender-God....not to mention nations. 17 different nations, and many of these nations has different themes within that nation (which gives you different available units). Different types of Fortresses to build, different units. Each nation is different and unique, with its own strengths and weaknesses. Sure, one nation may seem to be overpowered, but somewhere, there is a weakness....and a nation elswhere would be able to latch onto that weakness.

Dominions II looks really good too, I think. The maps really do remind me of some of the maps I have seen of Tolkiens Middle-Earth. They have a real "middle-age/fantasy" appearance.

I know in Shadow Magic, you have very limited amount of units to use, and even in those limits, there are even more limits. Some of the units are simply unusable (or, they were...could have been fixed via patches i guess). Dominions, I really don't get that feeling. Even Light Infantry has its usage (along with the free Militia you get sometimes in events....free patrollers, I would think).

Shadow Magic **might** be the prettier game....but Dominions, in my humble opinion, IS the better game.

I know this was a long post, but I tried to hit the things that ppl have commented on....and tried to compare the game to Shadow Magic. Just for reference, more ppl compare it to Master of Magic (although, I have never played that one...missed out on it)

[ November 25, 2003, 13:35: Message edited by: cpbeller ]

[Gandalf Parker]

AOW:SM is closer to being MoM2 than D2 is. AOW:SM is better in the areas of RPG and SoloPlay.

D2 is better for multiplayer and strategy. D2 is going to be the better choice for player community (player done docs, maps, mods, sites) and basically have a longer "shelf life" keeping it re-playable and on my computer longer

[Altus]

Originally posted by Elmo:
So there are two differences mentioned so far:

No diplomacy with the AI in D2.
No control of tactical combat in D2.

In Dom2 the player can give his commanders a limited number of combat formation and tactical orders prior to a battle. I find this far more realistic than AoW: SM's hands on tactical battles where the player controls every troop's action in the heat of battle; no commander has ever had that much control in any field engagement. I also appreciate how this limited battle control speeds up gameflow and reduces tedium.

Originally posted by Elmo:
One similarity:

Weak AI.

The quality of the AI between the two are far apart IMO. I have logged over a hundred hours of playtime with SM and have a difficult time recalling a battle I have lost, even at Emperor difficulty level; I know have never lost an entire game. In Dom2, playing with default settings at Normal difficulty and configuring my game to the recommended number of AI opponents for a given map losing a battle is commonplace, and loss of a game is not a shock either .

I rank Dom2 within the top10 most challenging solo turnbased games I have ever played. I wish SM provided as much of a challenge.

Originally posted by Elmo:
Anyone else have something for comparison to help me decide whether to get D2 or not?

Graphically, SM is far superior to Dom2. It has excellent 2D graphics; Dom2 graphics are minimalist. I have friends who have been unable to get beyond the graphics and appreciate the gameplay depth.

SM is a great 'beer and pretzel' fantasy wargame. I've had a lot of fun with it. Dom2 is also a lot of fun, but in a more cerebral way. Often I need to take a break from Dom2 to relax; it can get that involving and complex. Many gamers play for relaxation, so this can be a negative. SM is a lighter gaming experience and may compare favorably in this light.

As its been stated elsewhere in this thread, SM and Dom2 are vastly different games, both fun in their way. Personally though, I prefer Dom2 because I find it more challenging and complex.

[ November 25, 2003, 14:43: Message edited by: Altus ]

[MythicalMino]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
AOW:SM is closer to being MoM2 than D2 is. AOW:SM is better in the areas of RPG and SoloPlay.

D2 is better for multiplayer and strategy. D2 is going to be the better choice for player community (player done docs, maps, mods, sites) and basically have a longer "shelf life" keeping it re-playable and on my computer longer

Gandalf, you are more likely right....I have never played MoM....but i did have the unfortunate opportunity to play Shadow Magic

I always heard though, that MoM was more like fantasy Civ....and there has been comparisons with Dominions and what an actual fantasy civ would be like....

[ November 25, 2003, 13:46: Message edited by: cpbeller ]

[Elmo]

Thanks to Gandalf and cpbeller. I'm mostly interested in D2 for MP with a long time gaming buddy. Sounds like combat is quite different in D2. I don't think we ever fought a battle in Aow:SM with more than 24 units on a side. If there are potentially hundreds of units then I can see why you don't fight that out manually in D2. I assume you do get to watch the fight though?

Is there a simultaneous movement choice in D2 or is it strictly turn based?

Not being able to influence the AI empires with diplomacy is a disappointment. That was a big part of AoW:SM for us as we were constantly trying to ally with AI's and turn them against the other person. You could also trade spells with allies and you didn't suffer from nasty area type spells your ally cast. Is there anything like that in D2?

Thanks again.

[ November 25, 2003, 13:59: Message edited by: Elmo ]

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Dominions_II is like Civilization_III with fantasy elements but much more evolved.

I do not think this is a good comparison. They are both 4x games but have little more in common.

City building is a core part of Civ, while it's simplified a lot in Dom. Battles in Civ are a joke because of the huge abstraction & weird results like spearmen killing battleships, battles are one of the core elements of Dominions & have been treated with great care.

second: the artificial intelligence of computer opponents makes it easy to predict some army movement actions. I also have yet to see the AI opponents to try and assassinate one of my commanders. The largest topic on this forum is about improving the AI... but that's the way it is with most strategy games. [/QB]

Disagree. The AI doesn't do worse that the AIs from similar games, and I have played most of them.

Half of the thread you are referring to consist of 4 or so posters quoting each other's post entirely to add 'I agree' (deep thoughts indeed) & say how much they rock the AI.

Yet I have never faced any of them in MP to gauge how much of that is real skill & how much of it is ego stroking or taking advantage of extreme designs+tailored settings to get an easy win.

Others have said it previously, but I will do it also...
Dom II has 2 big strenghts: It's depth & its replayability: the game promised hours & hours of gameplay because it's without challenge the deepest game in the genre: Over 1,000 units, hudreds of spells, 17 nations...all of them different with their particular background & mythologically/historically inspired (instead of stock elves & orcs).

The game accounts for fatigue in battle, supplies, morale, experience, battle aflictions...the scope is epic with battles of even 1,000+ troopers and the way the tactical engine receives orders first & fights the battle on its own afterwards allows for this to be manageable.

If you want a prettier game, a game for the masses you should try AoW.

If you want a better game, a game for hardcore gamers that have played tons of different comp/board/miniatures games & know quality when they see it, then go for Dom II.

-edit grammar

[ November 25, 2003, 14:02: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Particle]

Originally posted by Elmo:
One similarity:

Weak AI.

LOL!