Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip

trooper · #1 May 28th, 2004, 10:42 AM

Imagine two Groups of allied empires in an advanced PBW game. Both of them have stellar manip and both of them have cut their WP to the ennemy and protect their systems with shields facilities.

This type of game may not end, as any attack can be prevented or neutralized by cuting a warp point... Ever experienced that in PBW ? Do player declare a draw match in that situation ?

Karibu · #2 May 28th, 2004, 12:18 PM

This is unlikely expect in full tech game. This can be easily countered by agreeing houserules which prohibits total turteling. Or that winning rules can be made like: No combats in 3 years.

freduk · #3 May 28th, 2004, 12:45 PM

They will be able to attack whoever does not have these shield facilities, while in return they need zero defense ships, so chances are high they will win. If ALL borderline systems have these shields then there's a problem: you can only switch to using massive intelligence.

But in that case you would better call it quits, also for it must have been a really boring game letting it get this far.

Alneyan · #4 May 28th, 2004, 04:47 PM

You *cannot* use intelligence if your opponent has closed all the wormholes leading to his systems, as you will lose contact with this Empire if there is no wormhole connection between at least one of your colonies and one of his. And without contact, you cannot launch intelligence projects against this Empire.

Even if you put a ban on full turtling, you might encounter a situation where an Empire has only one wormhole leading to all its systems. You would then be able to blockade the said wormhole with all your ships/units, making a breakthrough almost impossible. Twenty thousand fighters, bases and the usual defence taskforce of warships would pack a lot of firepower, and it would be possible (and even easy) to make such a situation by creating ten wormholes in all your systems. You merely need some time to do so, but not that much in fact. On the other hand, building the System Shielding facilities would take a lot of time given how expensive this facility is both to research and to build.

geoschmo · #5 May 28th, 2004, 05:55 PM

My experience is an empire with the time and resources to do this has pretty much won the game anyway. Their defensive posture is really only prolonging the inevitable. I've not seen a game where two empires reached this state simultaneously. Usually one empire gets there first and can then pretty much attack the other on their own terms while being more or less impregnable themselves. Makes actually for a very quick end.

Gozra · #6 May 28th, 2004, 09:42 PM

I had to get in on this. In Last man Standing We have a turtler. But He opened into systems that an opposing player was able to turn on a system shield. So We (3/4's of the Galaxy) are on the out side and it has taken us over 100 turns to stop the turtler and push him back in his hole. He can't or won't come out and we can't or won't go in 'YET' so I think we may see the greatest warp point assult in all of SEIV history with 4000 or more ships and bases on each side. Even now PBW cannot process the game because it takes a dedicated computer over 30 min. To process the turn. So we are connected but neither side has the strength to attack. And it is well known that the only way to win is by attack. At any rate. all things being equal a big empire that gets warp tech first can usally write the final chapter in a game.

hese · #7 June 9th, 2004, 08:32 AM

I am that turtler in Lastman. Or actually all remainging empires are hiding underneath their systemshields. Everybody is equally quilty over here. Shieldless empires were slaughtered quite fast as they were unable to break through systemshields and warppoint ambushes while fleets warpped inside their homeworlds.

Last time i broke free i lost over 1000 ships and managed to destroy 3 systems. Before that i was only empire who hammer it's way through warpambushes into procteded systems.

It's indeed quite hard for each sides: Other side has stockloaded ringworld and armada of bases and legendary trained fleets awaiting and outside lays 4 empires, covering 3/4 of galaxy (two talismans) guarding the gates. If/when i break free it's just another systemshield with warpambush, or ringworld system that is instantly recolonized after glassing, or ringworld under construction with solar bomb awaiting for fleet to arrive.

SEIV combat mode indeeds makes games stall in the endgames. Fleets are enormous and starter gets an huge advantage so combat gets quite difficult. So each side can't afford risk of attack and losing fleet and allowing opponent roam free for awhile.

Paul1980au · #8 June 9th, 2004, 08:45 AM

What is needed is for the events "open wormhole" natural random opening to occour or be set in PBW games or random ship movements - i guess in such a refined situtaion yes the game could end in a stalemate - but the no combat for x turns and the largest empire winning is one way to prevent this.

hese · #9 June 9th, 2004, 06:10 PM

Personally i would implement limits for fighters, bases and ships for sector. As there allready is for satellites & mines. It wasent on datafiles so i suppost that it can't be modded?

That would decrease penalty of defender firing first and make combats bit more evenly. When fleet sizes exceed 100 things are get out of hand. Sure players would still bring hundreds of ships to fray, but with separate fleets and intercept orders they would fought in different order.

Alneyan · #10 June 9th, 2004, 06:52 PM

That would be a nice idea indeed, and you could mod a part of the solution. (Basically, make Bases act as satellites, making Bases subject to the satellite limit per sector) Something along these lignes might be done for stationary fighters (outside combat at least) as well.

However, such a suggestion would be difficult to implement for ships, as you could have two fleets of the maximal size on the same sector at the same time. I am not too sure on how you would work around this. The same problem goes for fighters able to move on their own, plus the fact that fighters can be launched during a combat.

This being said, I would also like less ships involved in battles from the midgame onwards. And then, there is the matter of Stellar Manipulation and choke points, which can act as a powerful deterrent for any offensive. (Basically the situation you describe. It doesn't happen too often, as you need two players to reach the same position at about the same time ; otherwise, the one without Warp Openers/Closers is slaughtered very quickly.) But it seems like I am digressing here.