OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

[Ed Kolis]

Over time, people die and enter Heaven, but no one comes back from Heaven, so the number of souls in Heaven is constantly increasing. Of course, these souls have to be coming from somewhere, otherwise the law of conservation of mass is being violated. Where the souls are coming from is of course Earth. Now the Bible says that the righteous go on to live in the kingdom of God for eternity. Thus, Heaven has an infinite duration. But the Earth has a finite mass and if souls are leaving it at some rate then eventually its mass will be depleted below zero, which is impossible - nothing can have negative mass. Therefore Heaven cannot exist. A similar argument applies to Hell, Gehennom, Elysium, Hades, and any other form of afterlife. (The special case of reincarnation is somewhat more difficult and will not be presented here.)

Note: The preceding paragraph is a work of satire. It contains numerous scientific and mathematical errors. Please do not bother contacting me if you only want to point out these errors. Otherwise, write away!

[Mephisto]

We are doomed! Oh... wait... there is no hell either...

[Jack Simth]

There's no problem with the heaven/hell model as long as Armaggeddon comes before all the mass runs out.

If you divide the mass of the universe by the mass of a soul, then figure out how fast souls are leaving the universe, you will get an estimate on the latest armaggeddon can be.

That leaves three questions:
1) What is the mass of a soul?
2) What is the mass of the universe?
3) What is the rate of soul loss to both heaven and hell (the death rate of souled beings)?

[ August 17, 2003, 22:47: Message edited by: Jack Simth ]

[tesco samoa]

ed. wait 100 years science changes.

always does

[Slick]

Your assumption: a soul has mass.

Dubious at best, and no evidence to support it. Of course, that is fine for satire.

Slick.

[ August 17, 2003, 23:06: Message edited by: Slick ]

[General Woundwort]

Another false assumption - that extradimensional realities (heaven, hell) have the exact same "natural laws" that 4-dimensional space does. If the physical universe was created by God, it would seem logical that He existed prior to it and is transcendent above it - therefore He is not bound by its laws.

EDIT - Ed's spoof reminds me of the "proof" of God's non-existence in the Hitchhiker's series.

[ August 17, 2003, 23:12: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Slick:
Your assumption: a soul has mass.

Dubious at best, and no evidence to support it. Of course, that is fine for satire.

Slick.

Your assumption: there is a soul.

Everything that exists is matter or energy (or something like anti-matter, which is equivalent for purposes of this post). But, matter is energy, and energy is matter. All waves of energy have particle-like properties, such as a mass equivalent property, though it is normally infintesimal. All particles of matter have wave-like properties, though those are normally infintesimal (except for very, very fast moving particles, such as electrons, which are particles, but act more like waves than particles). Thoughts are energy on a quantum level, which exist because of the properties of the neural cells in the brain (which are mass). So, if the soul exists, it is either energy or matter (or one of those other things (such as anti-matter), which are equivalent. Either way, it would have a mass. This is not saying that the post by Ed means anything, just saying that the theoretical soul has a mass value. Of course, proving that the soul actually exists is a much more complex issue. And keep in mind that any arguments akin to "the [holy scripture/person of choice] says we have a soul, so we have a soul" are laughable at best. Any reasoning being can do better than that, and all humans are reasoning beings.

[General Woundwort]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Everything that exists is matter or energy (or something like anti-matter, which is equivalent for purposes of this post).

In this dimension. What about others?

So, if the soul exists, it is either energy or matter (or one of those other things (such as anti-matter), which are equivalent. Either way, it would have a mass. This is not saying that the post by Ed means anything, just saying that the theoretical soul has a mass value.

Again, based on an unfounded extrapolation of physical reality onto non/extraphysical dimensions.

Of course, proving that the soul actually exists is a much more complex issue. And keep in mind that any arguments akin to "the [holy scripture/person of choice] says we have a soul, so we have a soul" are laughable at best. Any reasoning being can do better than that, and all humans are reasoning beings.

All humans are reasoning? Would that that were true...

Seriously, the arguments for supernatural reality are much better than that - they just haven't been articulated well for the Last 200 years or so. Don't tell me that Dawkins is a greater mind than Augustine or Pascal, Fyron...

[Fyron]

In this dimension. What about others?

Again, based on an unfounded extrapolation of physical reality onto non/extraphysical dimensions.

What others? Please bring me some pictures from these other dimensions of yours. There is no proof of the existence of other dimensions, only a plethora of hypothesis (no theories, as there is no proof or concrete evidence of them).

Seriously, the arguments for supernatural reality are much better than that - they just haven't been articulated well for the Last 200 years or so. Don't tell me that Dawkins is a greater mind than Augustine or Pascal, Fyron...

Yes, and the arguments against are just as well articulated. Good articulation does not make an argument correct, just well articulated. Reality just happens to support the arguments against supernatural reality a bit better, as there is no concrete evidence of these supernatural realities.

All humans are reasoning? Would that that were true...

All humans are reasoning beings, meaning they have the capability to utilize rational thought, reason, logic, etc. I never said all humans exercise these abilities, just that they have them.

[ August 17, 2003, 23:51: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Slick]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slick:
Your assumption: a soul has mass.

Dubious at best, and no evidence to support it. Of course, that is fine for satire.

Slick.

Your assumption: there is a soul.

Everything that exists is matter or energy (or something like anti-matter, which is equivalent for purposes of this post). But, matter is energy, and energy is matter. All waves of energy have particle-like properties, such as a mass equivalent property, though it is normally infintesimal. All particles of matter have wave-like properties, though those are normally infintesimal (except for very, very fast moving particles, such as electrons, which are particles, but act more like waves than particles). Thoughts are energy on a quantum level, which exist because of the properties of the neural cells in the brain (which are mass). So, if the soul exists, it is either energy or matter (or one of those other things (such as anti-matter), which are equivalent. Either way, it would have a mass. This is not saying that the post by Ed means anything, just saying that the theoretical soul has a mass value. Of course, proving that the soul actually exists is a much more complex issue. And keep in mind that any arguments akin to "the [holy scripture/person of choice] says we have a soul, so we have a soul" are laughable at best. Any reasoning being can do better than that, and all humans are reasoning beings.

---

The following exists and have neither mass nor energy:

time
space

These are real. Your assumption that if a soul exists, it must be made of mass or energy simply is not provable and thus unfounded. If something existed and was not made of mass or energy, it would be very hard or impossible to observe to humans. That does not make it unreal. It is very arrogant to assume that if a human being cannot observe something (i.e. made of mass or energy) it does not exist.

A thousand years ago, radio waves existed, but they were unobservable and there would have been no way to prove they existed without developing the current technologies. The same is true of many things. Are you saying that we know all there is to know? Are you saying that if you can't observe it, it doesn't exist?

I would like to see you prove that everything that exists is made up of matter or energy.

And, I never assumed there was a soul. Please re-read my post.

edit: There are no "quantum level" effects in the brain. Do you even know what that means? Thoughts and ideas are electro-chemical in nature.

Slick.

[ August 18, 2003, 00:54: Message edited by: Slick ]