OT: Alien Contact

[Fyron]

Andres:
Such travel is impractical- not impossible- and would take many generations of lives of the ship's crew (so their children's children many times over would reach earth, not the original crew), or advanced cryogenics to put them in stasis for several millennia. When they got back, their home would be nothing like what it was when they left.

[Ragnarok]

Just to clear up a few points before I do as Andres said and step aside for others in the conversation.

How can you prove it is prediction? That is the claim on which you base your argument. You can not prove this, so your argument has no base.

Again, if you read the Bible, then look at secular history, you will see that the Bible does in fact predict future events, well actually, it's not the Bible that does this, God is. The Bible was inspired by God to be written. But we won't go into that.
But let me say this, since you say that I cannot prove my argument, then neither can you. You yourself have yet to prove that it is
postdiction. Therefore, your argument has no base either.

That was not an example you gave. You said that the new testament said that Jerusalem would fall to Babylon. In fact, you said this:

quote:

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quote:It was foretold that Jerusalem would be destroyed in one night by the Babylon army, those that survived would be carried off into exile for 70 years and then return to their homeland to restore their city. This in fact did happen.

There was nothing about Assyrians.

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Simple human mistake. The events were Jerusalem fell to Babylon, and then Babylon fell to Assyria. I simple forgot which example I used. But either one would be relevent as both were foretold years in advance.

Oh, so he said that some very common disasters that had happened in the past would happen again? That is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow. Well duh. It doesn't make it impressive at all, and does not mean that anything else in the Bible is true just because of that.

No, let me clearify what I was saying. Yes, these events took place in the past, no doubt about that, and it would be quite easy to say they will happen in the future, but what Timothy said was indicating that there would be more of these events taking place in the time of the end. If you do a bit of research you can find that there have been more earthquakes since 1914 up to now, then there was from the beginning of time. That is true. I forget the numbers but it's ALOT more then there used to be.

Ok, now I have said my peace and will do as Andres said, I have a religious opposition to the arguments you provided.
It was a enjoyable conversation to say the least.

[Fyron]

Again, if you read the Bible, then look at secular history, you will see that the Bible does in fact predict future events, well actually, it's not the Bible that does this, God is. The Bible was inspired by God to be written. But we won't go into that.

Kind of odd when you consider that the Bible was written well after all of those historical events. None of this historical events were predicted at all. The authors of the Bible simply wrote it after the fact, and wrote it as if they were predicting the future.

But let me say this, since you say that I cannot prove my argument, then neither can you. You yourself have yet to prove that it is
postdiction. Therefore, your argument has no base either.

My "argument" is that you are wrong. You have to prove yourself right for me to be wrong. Since you can't prove yourself right (as all of your evidence is wrong), my argument is true. You are wrong. There is little extra work going from showing that your arguments are wrong to saying that you are wrong.

Simple human mistake. The events were Jerusalem fell to Babylon, and then Babylon fell to Assyria. I simple forgot which example I used. But either one would be relevent as both were foretold years in advance.

Except that the Bible was written after those events took place. Nothing was predicted.

No, let me clearify what I was saying. Yes, these events took place in the past, no doubt about that, and it would be quite easy to say they will happen in the future, but what Timothy said was indicating that there would be more of these events taking place in the time of the end. If you do a bit of research you can find that there have been more earthquakes since 1914 up to now, then there was from the beginning of time. That is true. I forget the numbers but it's ALOT more then there used to be.

First off, that is 100% wrong. There were a lot more earthquakes from 4 billion BC to 1914 than there have been since 1914 to today. We were not around to record them all, and not all of the earthquakes that happened when we were around were recorded, and so are not known about now. Nowadays, we can record every little earthquake that occurs, so you get the illusion that there are more earthquakes.

Ok, now I have said my peace and will do as Andres said, I have a religious opposition to the arguments you provided. It was a enjoyable conversation to say the least.

Basically what you are saying is "I have no real proof, but I know I am right, because I am, and the Bible says so." All of your arguments have been rather circular, and prove absolutely nothing. The biggest problem for you is that the Bible was written well after the real historical events took place, not before.

[Phoenix-D]

Fyron, all I'm going to say, AGAIN, is this:

Lack of proof is not proof of abscence.

Well, one other thing. If you are talking about God or a god-like being, science does not work; you can't prove or disprove. Science is based on observing the natural world an determing how it works. These beings, almost by definition, could -change- those rules at a whim. Just because it is impossible now and was impossible before doesn't mean they couldn't make it possible then.

re: the sound barrier vs speed of light
Oh? Why is that then.

Phoenix-D

[DavidG]

Well pretty interesting discussion (although not much to do with Alien Contact ) I'd be very interested in knowing exactly what passages of the bible supposedly predict future events and what those events are. If there is one thing I know about the bible it is than many passages are open to wildly different interpretations. (For example the passage that prohibts Jehovahs from accepting blood transfustions)

[Ragnarok]

Kind of odd when you consider that the Bible was written well after all of those historical events. None of this historical events were predicted at all. The authors of the Bible simply wrote it after the fact, and wrote it as if they were predicting the future.

And what says these events weren't predicted? And no, you saying it does not count.

My "argument" is that you are wrong. You have to prove yourself right for me to be wrong. Since you can't prove yourself right (as all of your evidence is wrong), my argument is true. You are wrong. There is little extra work going from showing that your arguments are wrong to saying that you are wrong.

But you are saying, "I am right because I say everything was postdicted." You have yet to back that up either. Therefore I am right in saying your arguments are not based either. For you to argue that I am wrong you must prove it as well, which you have failed to do thus far.

First off, that is 100% wrong. There were a lot more earthquakes from 4 billion BC to 1914 than there have been since 1914 to today. We were not around to record them all, and not all of the earthquakes that happened when we were around were recorded, and so are not known about now. Nowadays, we can record every little earthquake that occurs, so you get the illusion that there are more earthquakes.

You are taking the points that I bring out and turning them into something I did not mean. It may be my fault for not being more clear but still.
Sure from 4Billion BC to 1914 there were alot. But I wasn't speaking of that time frame. I'm speaking of when mankind was put on the earth to 1914.

Basically what you are saying is "I have no real proof, but I know I am right, because I am, and the Bible says so." All of your arguments have been rather circular, and prove absolutely nothing. The biggest problem for you is that the Bible was written well after the real historical events took place, not before.

I have given real proof in that the predictions that were written in the Bible were intold fulfilled in secular history. You have denied this by saying that these things were written after the fact but that is not the case.
You are providing no evidence yourself in order to prove me wrong, you are simply saying that I am wrong because you say so.
Therefore, since you have yet to truely prove one of my points wrong your arguments to do just that have failed and it is a draw.

Edit: I am finally done with my part of the discussion. Neither one of us are getting anywhere with it so lets move on.

Edit2: And also I believe the forum guildlines prohibited getting into Bible discussions on this forum so I will refrain from doing just that. If others wish to continue conversation feel free.

[ February 27, 2003, 02:52: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

[Andr�s]

I agree it�s impractical, but it was also impractical to send a ship to the moon.
IMO that�s the most plausible way aliens could get here.
Yes anyone embarking on such a mission would be saying goodbye to his/her/other(what sex can aliens have) home planet forever. I see that even if their cryogenics were good enough to send them and take them back during a lifetime, so long after they departed the world they return to would be as alien for them as any other they can visit.
I�m sure that if we had the technology to build such a ship, we�d do it. And it wouldn�t be so difficult to find volunteers for a 1 way trip to another planet.
If aliens are anything like us in that regard, they�ll do that too.

About multiple dimensions, excuse me if this has nothing to do with what you were talking about:
The same way you cannot place a 2D figure on a 1D line, or a 3D body in a 2D plane, you cannot put a 4D hyperbody in 3d space.
There can be infinite 1D lines in a 2D plane, infinite 2D planes in a 3D space and infinite 3D spaces in a 4D hyperspace.
Mathematically there can be any number of dimensions.

Unfortunately as we're 3D beings our minds have been designed to think in 3D, it's impossible for us to imagine a 4th spatial dimension.
Now imagine that the 1D line is not straight or that the 2D plane is crumpled. For someone moving along the line, or someone moving in that plane, it is impossible to see his universe is crumpled, you need to step out of their universe to see that. And when you do that, you can see that the shortest way between two points in the 1D or 2D universe is a straight line that jumps out of the crumpled universe.
This is the original concept of hyperspace, assuming that our 3D space is crumpled within a 4D hyperspace, and that you can find a shortcut by moving in straight line outside the universe.
Can anyone remember who was the sci-fi author that invented this?

[DavidG]

Originally posted by Ragnarok:

quote:

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Kind of odd when you consider that the Bible was written well after all of those historical events. None of this historical events were predicted at all. The authors of the Bible simply wrote it after the fact, and wrote it as if they were predicting the future.

And what says these events weren't predicted? And no, you saying it does not count.

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Wow you guys are just getting confusing now. I'm sure IF will have an answer but it would seem to me the fact (which you don't seem to be disputing) that the bible was written after these events would sort of mean it didn't predict them.

[ February 27, 2003, 04:02: Message edited by: DavidG ]

[Taera]

the post is long and i dont want to read the whole 6 pages, i'll just post my opinion on the original topic.

In my opinion there IS intelligent life out there, though i dont believe in super-intelligent aliens because evolution simply cannot go that fast (remember - they couldnt have evolved before galaxy was born) and it seems that human evolution was hastened on its own (if you think about it humans are highly unsuitable for life in wilderness without intelligence - no protection, no real claws or anything). Which means there is no way we're going to see them any soon. Aliens, if they are, are most likely more primitive than us or at the same level. By the time we meet them (if we do - most likely all we would get is a radio signal) i presume we would have a space force (you dont have to go FTL to get to mars, for example) and it would be a little more difficult. That is, of course, given that Earth and its population can survive that long (resources are running low... and governments are going crazy)

[DavidG]

Originally posted by Taera:
[QBAliens, if they are, are most likely more primitive than us or at the same level[/QB]

Well I don't thikg I agree with this. The galaxy is what... 4 billion years old? (or is that just the Earth?? ) Just think how much we have advanced in the Last oh say 200 years. Either way we have advanced a hell of a lot in a time space that on a cosmic scale is extremely small.

[ February 27, 2003, 04:53: Message edited by: DavidG ]