MP: MP YARG4, non newb LA RAND game. WL wins

[Executor]

BTW, WL, you really need to do have fixed start next time. The random starts in this game were a disaster. A few nations had remarkably good starting position with not a single nation next to them anywhere near, and quite a few of us were clustered on top of each others. I had 3 neighbors by turn 3 and ran out of expansion space by turn 10, when I already met Atlantis, Agartha, TC, Midgard, Pangaea, Arco and Ulm, and Ulm TC and Agartha were all only two provinces away from my capital.

P.S. I guess I should keep my mouth shut and not tell you how to play, though I guess I make for a pretty good sensei!

[WraithLord]

Originally Posted by Executor

I didn't steal Marginon provinces, I took former C'tis provinces before Pangaea did. In the end I had maybe 2 or 3 Marginon provinces and probably 3 C'tis ones. You could have easily stopped with retaking Marg provinces if you wanted to. I made no attempts to stop you from retaking them.
As for my hostile actions, I never kept any troops next to your border and didn't move against Marginon until he turned AI and C'tis started attacking him too. If you consider that hostile, fine, I would too, maybe, if someone grabbed a few province from under my nose, but that's nothing anyone else wouldn't have done, probably including you too. And it's definitely not something worth making that nation your arch nemesis and forsaking the game cause of it as you seem to have done.

Executor, in YARG3 (see link ) both me and Eriu would have attacked and maybe stopped you had it not been for a silly conflict like me taking one or two of his spoils of war.
In YARG games every action that can seem hostile must be taken with utmost care if you don't want to provoke war.
Pride and feelings have a lot to do with it. When I went after Eriu it was emotion only and I knew I'm handing you the game there and then.

[WraithLord]

Originally Posted by Executor

BTW, WL, you really need to do have fixed start next time. The random starts in this game were a disaster. A few nations had remarkably good starting position with not a single nation next to them anywhere near, and quite a few of us were clustered on top of each others. I had 3 neighbors by turn 3 and ran out of expansion space by turn 10, when I already met Atlantis, Agartha, TC, Midgard, Pangaea, Arco and Ulm, and Ulm TC and Agartha were all only two provinces away from my capital.

P.S. I guess I should keep my mouth shut and not tell you how to play, though I guess I make for a pretty good sensei!

Point taken. Is there a fixed start Orania map you know of?

[Executor]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

Executor, in YARG3 (see link ) both me and Eriu would have attacked and maybe stopped you had it not been for a silly conflict like me taking one or two of his spoils of war.
In YARG games every action that can seem hostile must be taken with utmost care if you don't want to provoke war.
Pride and feelings have a lot to do with it. When I went after Eriu it was emotion only and I knew I'm handing you the game there and then.

Of course, I completely agree. And forgive me since I don't intend to insult anyone, but that kind of behavior is kind of petty. If someone does something I consider worth revenge I'm not going to do it if it means forfeiting the game, and considerably lowering everyone else chances if not completely, unless I'm either already in war with everyone (like the situation in Garden of the Moon if you remember) or if it's a RP like game and I have thematic reasons.
Don't get me wrong, I love going on a rampage and getting my revenge for being backstabbed, etc, but nothing remotely dramatic happened here. I took a few provinces Pangae would have taken had I not. And I made no attempt to retaliate even when I lost more than twice as much in return.

Not that I have anything against what Danbo did, I just find it strange that he should chose to attack once I got back in the game and started attacking you. It's a bit of an overreaction especially as he was waiting for someone to stop you, namely and that being me.

Not sure about the map, but I can make one with fixed starts if you'd like, just as soon as you know the number of players in it.

[WraithLord]

I agree. Pettiness is unwanted, but sometimes it creeps on you and you let your self indulge in it. Not ideal, but there you have it.

Re. the sensible course of action. No argument here. It's just that my point is that in RAND kind of game you can't depend on the other player doing what you consider to be the sensible action.

Clearly from "sensible" PoV you did the right thing and Gath got in the way and his intervention seems completely irrational. But the deeper you dig into the matter the less clear cut things may seem.

Thank you for your generous offer to add fixed starts! If it's ok w/ you I'll take you on it when the times come.

[Executor]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

I agree. Pettiness is unwanted, but sometimes it creeps on you and you let your self indulge in it. Not ideal, but there you have it.

Re. the sensible course of action. No argument here. It's just that my point is that in RAND kind of game you can't depend on the other player doing what you consider to be the sensible action.

Clearly from "sensible" PoV you did the right thing and Gath got in the way and his intervention seems completely irrational. But the deeper you dig into the matter the less clear cut things may seem.

Thank you for your generous offer to add fixed starts! If it's ok w/ you I'll take you on it when the times come.

Sure!

Sorry Danbo if I insulted you, WL summed it up pretty nice here. It is as he says, it seemed pretty irrational to me, but I'm sure it can be said about all of us at some point.

[danbo]

No offence taken, Executor. Actually I'm not offended if someone thinks my actions are irrational or just plain stupid. I only defended my right to take part in these type of games, which I love. That's all.

Cheers, I think in the next game I won't disappoint you

P.S. Yes, in the YARG3 I attacked another nation while alrealdy losing badly to you. It might seem irrational but it has simple explanation. I ran out of money and my troops started to desert. And it actually worked, I defeated that nation and improved my finances for some time.

[sansanjuan]

Ex
On a related note as far as what were they thinking..
I made a failed attempt to draw Midgard into your lands while you we're seiging my cap. I started raiding on both sides of the Midgard/ Pyth border hoping Midgard would drop the dragon on my reading party at the same time you hit it. With no diplomacy there was some (though small) chance of an "entanglement" misunderstandings near your cap. It came to naught but thought I'd bring it up.
ssj

[Executor]

Originally Posted by sansanjuan

Ex
On a related note as far as what were they thinking..
I made a failed attempt to draw Midgard into your lands while you we're seiging my cap. I started raiding on both sides of the Midgard/ Pyth border hoping Midgard would drop the dragon on my reading party at the same time you hit it. With no diplomacy there was some (though small) chance of an "entanglement" misunderstandings near your cap. It came to naught but thought I'd bring it up.
ssj

Heh, I'm quite familiar with what you tried to do. I did the same thing in some other no diplo game, where I managed to draw two more nations into conflict and there was no way I'd fall for it.
I let Midgard retake his and waited a few turns, I think, before I retook mine, just in case.

Danbo, yeah, I was a bit of an ars to say that. I was being sarcastic but to be honest not completly, sorry.
Regarding YARG 3, I'm glad it worked as I ended up with a couple of more provinces!