MBT's

[Imp]

Game already
base & A1 already have 1 shot of VIRSS A2 gets 2
A2 already has advanced ERA

[Wdll]

Originally Posted by RoPlayer

This seems to be the best spot to to raise the following possible issue.

I have noticed that the Chinese ZTZ-99/Type 99 lags somewhat behind the times in-game, in terms of fire control and possibly ERA/APS. More specifically, I am talking about the ZTZ-99A1 and ZTZ-99A2.

Public sites such as sinodefence, army-technology or armyrecognition mention fire control improvements both for the A1 and A2. A1 is mentioned to possess some kind of ERA while A2 is mentioned to have an Active Protection System. What specialized sites like Jane's have to say about this, I do not now, I don't have a subscription.

Still,it stands out that a Fire Control value of 40 remains constant between ZTZ-99,ZTZ-99A1 and ZTZ-99A2. This is contrasted by the improvement of the armor scheme, as does the improvement of the main gun's penetration.

Would it be over-estimating the capabilities of the ZTZ-99A1 and A2 if I were to propose the standard FC improvement increment of 5 between eras? 45 for A1, 50 for A2?

Also, would ERA on A1 and A2 and an APS on A2 merit a good look, or is it just hype without base?

I wouldn't mind seeing such a change. As it is, the top Chinese MBTs are way too expensive and provide too little. IMO it would be better to either increase the capabilities/stats of them or decrease the price. I can't see how Chinese tanks can be so much more expensive than (I think) all their Western counterparts.

[DRG]

All tanks use the same cost calculator factors so walk through all the variables and you'll find the answer

Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

For your comments sorry for delay in transferring this.

First installment for the 2011 patch. If no end date is given assume 2020 for current game.
MBTs
Add:
A1. USA/JUN 2010/M1A1 SA/ED/RESET/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing M1A1 ABRAM levels. Improved electronics and sensors, improved armor against IEDs and mines and can be in theater upgraded with the urban TUSK pkg. Recommend base and mirror unit w/TUSK up armor pkg.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...a-tanks-02535/
http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/03/05...t-at-anniston/A2.
IRAQ/DEC 2010/M1A1 SA/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing M1A1 ABRAM levels. As above w/o the advanced ERA pkg. and BFT program.
Recommend base and mirror unit w/TUSK up armor pkg.
Please note these refs to include some bleed over info to both types.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...013/#more-5013
http://www.usf-iraq.com/?option=com_...684&Itemid=128
http://www.dapss.com/mpi-news/0709/0709C-iraq.htm
http://www.stripes.com/news/u-s-tank...i-army-1.89069
http://www.deagel.com/Main-Battle-Ta...000516002.aspxC1.

C1.Change: IRAQ/M1A1M to M1A1 SA per refs. above.

A3. USA/JAN 1977 – DEC 1986/M60A1 RISE Passive/C4/RB 105mm L51 M68 w/63 Rds, M240 7.62mm w/5.9 Rds & M85 12.7mm w/900 Rds.The USA developed the ERA packages late in the life of this tank but, never to be used them. The development of the M60A3, M60A3 TTS and the dawn of the M1 stopped this. The USMC actually got them from the USA stocks during Desert Shield prior to combat operations. RISE Passive was the pinnacle of the M60A1 MBT.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ound/m60a1.htm
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/tank/M60.html
Post #73.
Pics:

A4. TURKEY/JUN 1991 or JAN 1994/M60A1 RISE Passive/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing M60A1 RISE Passive levels, with ERA. These are the USMC tanks that were donated to Turkey. The confusion in the dates comes from the net, I found a document that I couldn't recover that showed Congress did not approve the release of the more advanced M60 series tanks for export until 1993. I will attempt to recover this if possible, for now, I can only say I saw it. I feel the JAN 1994 date is best for all foreign M60 advanced tanks (M60A1 RISE Passive and M60A3 TTS). From what I can tell Turkey is the only country to have recieved the M60A1 RISE Passive tank, all other U.S. serviceable units were upgraded to the M60A3 & TTS versions when these became available to the USA. NOTE: ALL M60 series tanks are still in service with the Turkish army. If not change of end dates are required to 2020. See M60T below refs to support this if needed.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ar...hp/t-2324.html
http://www.turkishworld.multiservers.com/equipment.html
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/...e_Turkish_Army

C2. Change: USA (If added.) , USMC & TURKISH (If added.)/M60A1 RISE to M60A1 RISE Passive or just M60A1 Passive based on Posts #73 and #74 to avoid confusion and identify the most important mod to the M60A1.

A5. CANADA/NOV 2010/LEOPARD 2A4M CAN/RESET/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing LEOPARD 2A4 levels.
The improvements are primarily in all around armor protection against IEDs and mines. And some sensor upgrades. Don't know but is the thermal site on the turret pictured below on the frontal view new as well?
http://www.kmweg.de/2922-YWt0X3BhZ2U...ws_detail.html
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18620/
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/id...1018_1_n.shtml
http://communities.canada.com/ottawa...ghanistan.aspxPics:

A6. GERMANY/JAN 2011/LEOPARD 2A7+/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing LEOPARD 2A6 levels. The improvements are primarily in all around armor protection against IEDs and mines, sensors, remote operated secondary weapons station and munitions.
http://www.kmweg.de/21874-bD1lbg-~PR...opard_pso.html
http://www.kmweg.de/2922-YWt0X3BhZ2U...ws_detail.htmlA more detailed account use page advance for both above. Note links to left for LEOPARD 2A4M CAN and DINGO 2 purchase for later post. Also German LEOPARD 2A6 tanks will be RESET to this standard during major depot maintenance. Also provides update to countries such as Netherlands having updated all their A5's to A6 levels.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm A very good site I believe from someone who is a member of our forum. Also addresses upgrades of these tanks i.e. 2A4 to 2A5 from other countries, has this issue (For the longer term.) been looked into for the game?
Post #60 Should provide a working basis for the German multi-purpose munition as well off those videos. The video on the left if I remember goes into more detail on the IDF APAM-T M1171 round.
Pic:

A7. INDIA/JAN 2012/ARJUN MK II/As in the game with LAHAT. Mods needed per refs above existing ARJUN levels. Will have LAHAT ATGM, added two tons of additional armor of a hybrid ceramic type also will add next gen ERA to the turret, auto loader and improved sensors and electronics.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...984/#more-4984
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...4101274452185/
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-F...rmy-Orbat.html Official Army website, might be of some interest though it looks like it hasn't been updated in several months.

M1. Mod: INDIA/MAY 2009/ARJUN MK1/As in the game with LAHAT and date change as indicated. Mods needed per refs above existing ARJUN levels. Of LAHAT and date change there is no doubt, however as I stated in my "mission statement" I'm no expert in converting raw data into game data and just have to rely on my instincts of what I'm reading. With that in mind, I believe the ARJUN might deserve another look based upon the above refs and previous posts provided below. TI/GSR looks good at 40, just not sure of armor or FC based on the refs and the way it outperformed the T-90S in every category. When I read that the armor is similar to the venerable Challenger 2, the wheels start turning in a novice like me. NOTE: All ARJUN MK1 tanks will be upgraded to the MKII standard during major depot maintenance and I would not think much before mid to late 2013 as the current order of the 124 MK11 tanks starts winding down, will track this.
Posts: #9, #19, #36, #75 and #76 some bleed over (#75L) for MKII as well.

M2. Mod: TURKEY/JAN 2007 - DEC 2009/M60T/RESET/As in the game with 60mm mortar 15 to 25 RDs and date change as indicated. Net conflicts here based on rounds carried on MERKAVA 4 and SABRA. They are for all tanks here internally mounted and tied into both sensor and FC for suppression (or elimination ) of ATGM teams, snipers and infantry.
TURKEY/JAN 2010/M60T/RESET/As in the game with LAHAT 6 - 10 RDs and date change as indicated. Mods needed per refs above existing M60A3 IMI ST levels as currently named in the game. Though the TI/GSR is less then the MERKAVA 4 but supposedly has the same FC unit installed is of a lesser issue than I believe it's armor ICON defense numbers. Most of these references presented or already posted refer back to having many of the systems of the MERKAVA 4 installed such as FC, sensor and other electronic upgrades, weapons and armor (My focus is on the frontal turret and hull area.). The source will illustrate this reasonably well, it's the IMI press release on delivery of the last M60T to Turkeys MOD. Please the note the close up shot of the M60T, that armor looks the same as on the MERKAVA 4. I just feel it deserves another look is all. LAHAT again net conjecture go low or go mid would be my guess high might be advertising.
http://www.imi-israel.com/vault/docu...d%20m-60a1.pdf
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ar...hp/t-2324.html
Posts: #15, #17, #25, #66 and #71.

C3. Change: TURKEY/M60A3 IMI ST to M60T per refs and posts above.

C4. Change: TURKEY/End Date to JUN 2009/M60A1/ As in the game. Mods needed per refs above for M60T. I feel this a good approximate time that the last of the Turkish M60A1 tanks would have had to start the RESET process to the M60T.

C5. Change: TURKEY/End Dates to DEC 2020 as needed./M60 series/ As in the game. Mods needed per A4, M2 and C3 their refs above if not already done.

M3. Mod: TURKEY/JUN 2008 - DEC 2020./LEOPARD A1T and A4T UPGRADE/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above LEOPARD A1T & A4.
Rough guess on the start field date, upgrade was completed in NOV 2009. I've also seen some blog information to suggust the A1T recieved some armor upgrades as well, it makes sense considering the investment in this system, however unless I missed it I can't provide you with anything concrete. Your call on the armor.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...59&c=EUR&s=LAN
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/home/projects/...d1A1A1A4T.aspx
http://www.aselsan.com.tr/urun.asp?urun_id=79&lang=en

C6. Change: TURKEY/ End Dates to DEC 2020 as needed./LEOPARD series up to and including A4T/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above LEOPARD A1T. The LEOPARD A1 T is the first version purchased by Turkey and just completed a major overhaul of it's FC and associated systems in NOV 2009.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ar...hp/t-2324.html
http://www.turkishworld.multiservers.com/equipment.html

M4. Mod: Israel/2010/MERKAVA 4b/As in the game with TROPHY system 6-10 shots. Mods needed per refs above MERKAVA 4b . These sources would lead you to believe it has an even newer version of hybrid armor. This is one reason I didn't also use the armor request for the M60T to be compared to the 4b. What's not in doubt is that the first IDF Battalion to operate with the improved MERKAVA did so about two weeks ago with the TROPHY system installed. TROPHY shots again net conjecture go low or go mid would be my guess high might be advertising. This close in protection system might be hard to model in the game but, have brought this up with John (Imp) and thought that VIRSS as the game uses it might be a short term solution to getting it in the game. The troop carrying issue well that's been discussed to infinitive but, I guess the only option you is a heavy apc. My feeling carry 6 so more ammo is available. Your call.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava4/
http://www.defense-update.com/newsca...kava.html#more
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18649/ MERKAVA 4 w/TROPHY exercise.
http://www.eurosatory.mod.gov.il/merkava.htm#topPage
http://www.janes.com/events/exhibiti...aks-cove.shtml
Posts: #45, #60 (With video fm "Future Weapons show.), #61, #62 and #65. Troop issue #52 and #56. Pics:

C7. Change: TURKEY/2012 to 2015/BLACK PANTHER to ALTAY/As in the game. Many of the refs for the M60T make mention of some of the issues and delays in the ALTAY MBT program. Best estimates are that the ALTAY prototypes will be ready by 2013 and barring any major teething problems fielded by 2015. Picture is good as compared to current 3D renderings on the net for the ALTAY.

C8. Change: USA/Dates as follows for all types of Sheridan's/As in the game. Mods of dates needed per refs for SHERIDAN all types.
A. M551/JAN 1968 to JAN 1977/ Base model.
B. M551 TWO BOX (M551 CS in the game.)/JAN 1969 - JAN 1977/Modified for operations in Vietnam. Kit installed for turret and weapons stabilization after removing missile components (Except pwr. sup. & rate sensor.) w/no missiles. These modifications allowed for the increase of 152mm FLECETTE rounds and MG ammo stowage. This end date (Otherwise 1975 your choice.) allows for 2yr. overlap in conversion to;
C. M551A1/JAN 1975 - DEC 1988/This added the ANVVG-1 LRF (Some indicate ANNVG-1 LFR.) For info and clarification before I move on you need to know the following: In FY 1980 The SHERIDAN was phased out by the regular ARMY. In FEB 1984 the Arkansas NG retires the SHERIDAN, it would be the only NG unit to have used them. However the 82nd AB Div. (AIRBORNE, ALL THE WAY!! for those who served.) convinced the ARMY to keep them which they did.
D. ADD/M551A1 TTS/JAN 1989 - JULY 1997/UPGRADED with the ANVSG-2B TTS (Some indicate ANNSG-2B TTS.) These tanks again saw combat in Panama and Desert Storm with a better combat reputation then it had in Vietnam with the 3-73 Armor Batt. of the 82nd AB Div., in JULY 1997 they were finally retired to be used at NTC CA.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/tank/M551.html
http://www.82armor.com/82nd_armor.htm This source was leaned on more because I'll go with the men and woman who've served and used the actual gear every time if the info can be corroborated with others.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ound/m60a3.htm Same system as on M551A1 TTS.
Post: #7

D1. DELETE: TURKEY/M1A2T FNSS/Due to political reasons this was DOA. Current ref. shows who has what in the ABRAMS foreign market.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/

D2. DELETE: TURKEY/T-84 YATAGAN/Though it was one of four tanks tendered, Turkey went with the LEOPARD 2A4. The YATAGAN has only been exported to one country, Pakistan.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t84.htm
TRANSFER (?) to Pakistan, I'm a little tired right now but went back to check and didn't see it there unless I just forgot the Pakistani name for it.

D3. DELETE: INDIA/MBT-EX KARNA/Meant for export but DOA when ARJUN was delayed.
http://frontierindia.net/tank-ex-ideal-t-72-upgrades
I think this might be the worst of it, I hope! If again any additional info is needed please again ask by the numbers. All seems in order and I really hate rabbit holes now!?!

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Good Morning!
I like to keep my refs handy in my "favorites" it's easy for me to hold them, get them, paste them and when finished delete them. So here's a couple of news items I've been holding until after I got my first patch page for 6.0 (?) posted. Now it's time to filter out more in preps for the next post.
1. With the cooperation between Israel and Turkey having gone so well until a few months ago, it was thought that Turkey would be the first country to benefit from the export of the MERKAVA and possibly the TIGER APC. It might've offered Turkey a cheaper alternative to pursuing the ALTAY program (The first test prototypes are not expected until 2013.) but things have chilled after the GAZA resupply incidents this past summer in which at one eight Turkish citizens were killed by Israeli forces. Also earlier this week Turkey removed from their "Red Book" several countries not friendly to Israel such as Syria further straining relations. Now it seems Columbia is now mentioned as a front runner, only time will tell.
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...did=1000598168
The Red Book issue:
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/695/
But maybe perception isn't reality, you be the judge.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4577398

2. Ukraine to upgrade Peru's T-55 tanks, welcome the TIFON-2.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18826/
Pics;



Don't want to be timed out!!
Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The M551 SHERIDAN has come up many times in this thread and elsewhere. It was the last light tank to serve the U.S., though the need was expressed by the Army in particular the Airborne who didn't want to lose the close support option they offered. There were three contenders I'm just going to use one source which is good enough for this purpose. All were killed due to cost, delays and at the time political considerations. One got all the glory (I remember hearing quite a bit about it even in the national news at the time.) because it was so technically advanced, the second would provide the gun & mount for the MGS and the last would be the only one to see the light of day but not with the U.S. and is still in service today in an upgraded version, it's also in WinSPMBT in both versions.
1. For the Glory the M8 BUFORD:
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/m8_buford.htm
Pic: Attachment 10640

2. The Contributor the EXPEDITIONARY (Also very advanced.):
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/...onary_tank.htm
Pic: Attachment 10641

3. The Protector the STINGRAY:http://www.military-today.com/tanks/...light_tank.htm
Pics: Attachment 10642 it's offspring:
Attachment 10643 and Attachment 10644

Take care all and good night!
Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Boy those pics of the TIFON-2 (T55M8A2 TYPHOON.) well let's just say "stunk to all high heaven" these should be better with a little more info as well on the tank. I guess everyone is worrying about "keeping up with the Jones" in this case Venezuela who just recently completed another arms deal with Russia to include the T90S supposedly. They also are in line to get the S-300 systems that were destined to go to Iran until Russia called off the deal to comply with the recent UN sanction's.
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t55_tifon2.php
Pics:
Does someone recognise the IFV in the background?


Have great day! Got to get ready to make a buck or two!
Regards,
Pat

[Mobhack]

1) first, assume the tank being photographed to be at the manufacturer's plant. Therefore the APC is one of theirs, too.

2) Then a quick click on the various APC links on the web site you quoted, and the "BTR-4" linky seems to be the beast in question.

looks like another proposal looking for sales - since it is not something I recognise as being in service anywhere, nor does the manufacturers site mention any customer.

Cheers
Andy

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Info here for comments as desired, these were just posted for submission for the next patch.
MBT- yes I found one more from my notes from the beginning of the year. For continuities sake in the MBT section will continue "number" system where left off.
A8. UKRAINE/JUN 2010/OPLOT-M/ADD 9K119M REFLEX (NATO Des. AT-11 SNIPER-B #Missiles UKN/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing OPLOT levels. I'm allowing a one year delay in the fielding date to avoid duplication in these tanks w/o Zaslon and with it now to save a slot unless you have room for both. This tank is slowly coming off the production lines but is a major improvement defensively to all other Ukrainian tanks. It features a new third generation ERA known as Nosh-2 which is equal to the current Russian Kontakt 5 ERA and some claim superior to it, plus side skirt protection was added. Also it has the Shtora countermeasure system and it was fitted with the Zaslon APSystem as well. Also it has improved sites, FC and situational awareness.
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/articl...hp?forumID=608 They know tanks they built them for the Soviet Union.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/oplot_m.htm
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t84armament.php Please use the links, though based on the original OPLOT they are helpful especially about the stats on the 125mm KBA3 SB main gun.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3009.html The Shtora-1.
http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-...m-Ukraine.html
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3705.htmlAs currently on Ukraine’s T-84 and T-84 YATGAN. Notice no mention of the OPLOT (Lower left.) which was available when the YATAGAN was produced, the logical conclusion is the OPLOT must have Nosh-2 system or it just could be an omission for the base Nosh system.
http://www.milparade.com/digest.php?...fnum=95&lang=1 A Russian source a short note 3/4 of the page down. Seems to say the Ukrainians "borrowed" the base system of the time and further developed it.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3706.html More on Zaslon.
Pics: I guess they don't copy over sorry, already deleted off my computer see PATCH POST.


M5. Mod: POLAND & MALAYSIA/PT-91 TWARDY UNITS 009, 010 & 018 & PT-91M PENDEKAR UNIT 500/As in the game. Mods needed per refs above existing PT-91 & PT-91M levels./Intentionally looked liked Malaysia was missing the base PT-91 TWARDY but after many nights of research and in dealing with other related issues to Malaysia I'm now satisfied that the PT-91M is it's only MBT to date. The army-guide.com contract section is a great tool, though it caused some confusion as noted below. Have seen no data on Polish Units 009 & 010 however, based on the refs it seems that Poland’s Unit 018 and Malaysia's Unit 500 are under protected based on info concerning the ERA pkgs on both. Other issues are quick noted in the below refs also concerning the improved PT-91M. However through some reading between the lines it became apparent to me not to add the PT-91 to Malaysia though at the same time I feel they have more (~110 from many sources.) PT-91M MBT's then shown by some refs.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/contracts.php Enter country from menu note for Malaysia it shows both versions contracted for, this started the "ball of confusion" as MANY sites supported that info. Add the PT-91 & PT-91M totals and I believe the number of tanks was 106.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product179.html For PT-91 TWARDY
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3431.html Please note Para 7 about the main gun as it might affect the PT-91M PENDEKAR as it's in the game for Malaysia as UNIT 500.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/pt91_twardy.htm Please note Para 2 and the bottom of the ref in the variant section covering the PENDEKAR.

C9. Change: MALAYSIA/UNIT 500/PT-91M to PT-91M PENDEKAR.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well as I see it now we are down to the following as probably the last brand new designed tanks that will get into the game and I am willing to list them in the order they'll likely to appear in the real world and ours.
1. Japan the TK-X or TYPE-10 is ready to go. With the economic situation this tank was put on the back burner. Now thanks to N. Korea and the growing influence of China, it'll probably get into production within the next couple of years or sooner. Also Japan is seeking much closer ties with S. Korea and Australia which is now seen as a key defensive partner in the region.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/tk_x.htm
Pic:

2. Turkey the ALTAY which I've posted on in conjunction with the M60T. Sources say it's still on track for prototypes by 2015 and fielding by mid 2016.
http://www.army-technology.com/proje...ainbattletank/
Pic:

3. India The FMBT is due in 2020. India has been very active in regards to weapons development and procurement (AKASH, ARJUN MKI and MKII etc.) logically you would think due to it's neighbor to the west and the issue with Kashmir. But that would be wrong to some degree, they're looking north to China as well. They've built just recently two more air bases in the north and are looking to build more. The ARJUN MKII is meant to counter an armored threat from there as well until the FMBT comes on line.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20291/ It's not much.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/ The BROADSWORD homepage an excellent source for Indian military and international affairs.
Pic: Obviously an ARJUN pictured but the write up indicates some of the technology to be used with the
ARJUN MKII and FMBT.


Regards,
Pat