EA Arco - uncle moneybags

[thejeff]

But that's not pretender expansion. That's pretender & lots of troops expansion. Which means you're not building other expansion parties.
The point of an awake SC is to add to expansion with your regular troops, not to replace it or back them up.
I'm not a EA Arco expert, so I don't know how their national troops do at indy clearing, but do you really get enough advantage from using an awake pretender like that to cover the 150 design points? Especially when you take less provinces with your troops, because some are being sent with the pretender, and then probably reinforced since you're using cheap ones.

On another note, I doubt the "special targeting options that archers get" carry over once they switch forms and charge into melee. I believe they switch to attack closest. On second thought, what special targeting options? The only difference between the "fire" and "attack" targets is that "fire" lacks a "rearmost" target. What's the advantage?

[Ferrosol]

EA Arco can expand reasonably well without an SC true. Although I would argue that SC pretender offers the best "bang for your buck" you can get. I would further point out that if you intend to rely on chariots to expand with (which I agree are excellent btw) you need an awake SC who can attack on Turn 2 to secure the resources you need (especially if you go the typical sloth build for Philosophers). As such I would argue that as the Lord of Rebirth is not capable of turn 2 expansion due to its flimsy Armour and non existent damage. Precisely which awake SC you take is up to you but I would argue that the Cyclops is probably the single most effective SC Pretender in the game.

[Verjigorm]

I use an immortal for an early expander, preferring the Phoenix, since I already have good magical diversity. The Master Lich is my #2, but he isn't as capable of early expansion. The first two provinces taken with the Phoenix may take 2-3 turns each until you get Evocation Level 1, but you can expand with chariots anyway, and 1.5 provinces per turn is better than 1 province per turn.


I like the immortals because I don't have to worry about them getting killed, and even if they get horror marked beyond any reason (to the point where they get a horror attack every round), they can still act as a capitol mage (since the perpetual horror attacks generally confine him to center). You can always attack with the Pretender, of course, via Teleport/Trapeze/etc. or within their movement radius (which is why I love the phoenix) but the horror attack will always send them back home. You rarely want to put equipment on an immortal except for ritual magic anyway (Exception: lich), so that's immaterial except that the horror marked pretender can't use boosters without losing them to the horror attacks, so your ritual options become a bit more confined.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by thejeff

But that's not pretender expansion. That's pretender & lots of troops expansion. Which means you're not building other expansion parties.
The point of an awake SC is to add to expansion with your regular troops, not to replace it or back them up.
I'm not a EA Arco expert, so I don't know how their national troops do at indy clearing, but do you really get enough advantage from using an awake pretender like that to cover the 150 design points? Especially when you take less provinces with your troops, because some are being sent with the pretender, and then probably reinforced since you're using cheap ones.

On another note, I doubt the "special targeting options that archers get" carry over once they switch forms and charge into melee. I believe they switch to attack closest. On second thought, what special targeting options? The only difference between the "fire" and "attack" targets is that "fire" lacks a "rearmost" target. What's the advantage?

Regardless of whether you want to call it SC or SC+troops expansion, the difference is very strong. The SC will easily lets you take+4 territories the first year. and more like +8 the second.

As for the design points - you can argue it either way. As I indicated. As for the the chariot archers, yes, if you order them to fire - the order converts when they switch to melee. And vice versa. If you order them to Hold and attack rearmost - they will advance to bow range and fire.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I use an immortal for an early expander, preferring the Phoenix, since I already have good magical diversity. The Master Lich is my #2, but he isn't as capable of early expansion. The first two provinces taken with the Phoenix may take 2-3 turns each until you get Evocation Level 1, but you can expand with chariots anyway, and 1.5 provinces per turn is better than 1 province per turn.


I like the immortals because I don't have to worry about them getting killed, and even if they get horror marked beyond any reason (to the point where they get a horror attack every round), they can still act as a capitol mage (since the perpetual horror attacks generally confine him to center). You can always attack with the Pretender, of course, via Teleport/Trapeze/etc. or within their movement radius (which is why I love the phoenix) but the horror attack will always send them back home. You rarely want to put equipment on an immortal except for ritual magic anyway (Exception: lich), so that's immaterial except that the horror marked pretender can't use boosters without losing them to the horror attacks, so your ritual options become a bit more confined.

The phoenix is one of my favorite pretenders in CBM. However, it is not especially effective for arco. The phoenix does best with a high dominion score - which wastes the effects of skeptics - or at least requires you to spend design points that sceptics otherwise mitigates.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Ferrosol

EA Arco can expand reasonably well without an SC true. Although I would argue that SC pretender offers the best "bang for your buck" you can get. I would further point out that if you intend to rely on chariots to expand with (which I agree are excellent btw) you need an awake SC who can attack on Turn 2 to secure the resources you need (especially if you go the typical sloth build for Philosophers). As such I would argue that as the Lord of Rebirth is not capable of turn 2 expansion due to its flimsy Armour and non existent damage. Precisely which awake SC you take is up to you but I would argue that the Cyclops is probably the single most effective SC Pretender in the game.

Under CBM Cyclops is 125 points, and needs awe to safely expand early. That is 295 points more than the lord of rebirth.

The lord of rebirth gets you into death, the cyclops does not. Arco needs the alteration school anyway for Oreos. Finally, the proof is in the pudding. I have much more luck with Rebirth than I do with Cyclops = )

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

The phoenix is one of my favorite pretenders in CBM. However, it is not especially effective for arco. The phoenix does best with a high dominion score - which wastes the effects of skeptics - or at least requires you to spend design points that sceptics otherwise mitigates.

Well, the strategy for using skeptics is exactly the opposite when using an immortal pretender.

When you use an immortal, you want wide dominion so he can travel, thus you use your Skeptics to collapse dominion walls in advance of preachers and your stealthy flying prophet. You use them to expand rather than contain your dominion. There are two aspects to dominion sculpting: containment and expansion.

When assaulting a castle, I like to collapse dominion in the province and then preach my own into it so that my pretender can participate in the assault. This also has the added benefit of preventing any immortal units inside (vampires) from resurrecting. Skeptics are very powerful heretics (level 3), so they have a 90% base chance of nullifying a candle which means they are effective both at containing bad scales and rapidly enabling the encroachment of your dominion on others. You can work down the candles on a target province long before your preaching force arrives to mop up the mess.


Additionally, when used in this way, skeptics function as a primary scout force rather than hanging about in your own lands.

[chrispedersen]

I don't use skeptics to contain my dominion. Effectiveness of skeptics to remove candles depends on the number of candles in the province.

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Regardless of whether you want to call it SC or SC+troops expansion, the difference is very strong. The SC will easily lets you take+4 territories the first year. and more like +8 the second.

As for the design points - you can argue it either way. As I indicated. As for the the chariot archers, yes, if you order them to fire - the order converts when they switch to melee. And vice versa. If you order them to Hold and attack rearmost - they will advance to bow range and fire.

You must be playing on big maps if you expect to get 8+ provinces with a pretender in the second year. Aren't you usually more constrained by other players by then than by expansion parties?

I'll have to experiment with the chariot archers. I'd thought that archers on hold and attack would fire if they were in range, but not advance the first 2 turns. Then attack without firing.

[Verjigorm]

I'm aware that candle removal is dependent upon the number of candles.

I recruit chariot archers in the beginning because they have a lower resource cost. Putting them on hold and attack causes them to fire arrow volleys for 2 turns and then advance and trample.

After I have sufficient resources, I switch to regular chariots since they have a lower cost and upkeep.


If you don't use skeptics to contain your dominion, then what does this mean?

The phoenix is one of my favorite pretenders in CBM. However, it is not especially effective for arco. The phoenix does best with a high dominion score - which wastes the effects of skeptics - or at least requires you to spend design points that sceptics otherwise mitigates.

Having high dominion makes dominion spread take a little longer, and it means that once you get dominion into a province you can make it very difficult to remove it. I like having high dominion with skeptics, but if you just take the Phoenix' base dominion, her cheap 50 point design point cost is still worthwhile considering the immortality and free Phoenix Pyre.