Recruitable Unit Rebalance Version 7.51 Released.

[Scott Hebert]

A short update from my end.

I've just gotten back from a trip. I'll be making my way through the rest of the commanders (probably just national for now) and posting the info on my own thread. It might be interesting to see what would happen if you played a game with both Cherry's unit mod and my (hopefully forthcoming) commander mod.

[Saber Cherry]

Ironhawk said:As for hosting, I would be happy to host this game on Sheap's machine. Which is very stable and has a rock solid connection. Just let me know what mods and maps I will need to download and what all the game parameters are.

Also, maybe you should post a thread over in the Multiplayer Forum and link it here so that people can officially sign up for the game?

Thanks a lot! Actually I found out last night my harddrive is (probably) dying, so I'm rush-ordering a new one, but in the meantime I'm trying to avoid HDD accesses So if you can host it (on this mysterious "Sheap" of which you speak) that would be perfect!

I'll start a thread in the MP section. As for mods and maps... hard to say about a map until I know how many are interested, but DEFINITELY under 200 provinces. Modwise... I spent many hours putting spells (and summoned units) into mod-format, and only finished conjuration. The other schools will go much faster (I think) but I doubt I'll have a complete "Low-Magic" mod in the next 2-3 days, and no current mod accomplishes this effect. However, I can at least adjust the best and worst spells to make a "Lower Magic" mod where blade winds, falling fires, artillery, army invincibility, and mega summons are nerfed.

I'll start an MP thread now.

[Ironhawk]

Yeah, modding all these spells is going to be quite the undertaking! Trying to think of an easier way to do it but I am coming up blank.

Don't forget to link back here once you have an MP thread so people can find it.

[Saber Cherry]

Ironhawk said:
Don't forget to link back here once you have an MP thread so people can find it.

Ok

Please pick a nation and sign up here!

[Saber Cherry]

tinkthank said:Some tiny "criticism-type" remarks so far (I have detailed my remarks so far in a text-doc I have at home but forgot to bring here, sorry)

I'll look forward to seeing the complete list when you find it

- Many ranged units became asymptotically better than their counterpart melee units, thinking in particular of X-Bows (especially of the Marignon flavor), which became BOTH cheaper AND better. I would have like to see them ONLY cheaper, NOT better, at least for some of the Indy troops, because I would still prefer there to be an incentive to purchase National troops above Indy ones of the same type (that is: get Indy troops if you are in a hurry or if you lack that type altogether, e.g. x-bows or archers for Abysia). I found the Heavy Archer (equally good warrior as bowman) a bit too butch -- if he is really wearing all that armor, his precision should drop.

Ok, I'll look into that. I did reduce the Xbow's range by 10%, by the way. You're right, though, archer units generally did get better overall... especially lightly armored ones, which (mostly) now have 2 strat moves so you can actually move them with a mobile army. I'll reevaluate the archer cost guidelines.

- Marignon is now too butch for my tastes: The X-bow is now a cheap elite unit and the KotChalice is now much less expensive (why? I think he filled his niche quite well before), and the Flagellant has become almost half-price.

Hmmmm. I like the cheap flagellant for thematic reasons, but I'll reexamine the other two. What do you think is a fair cost for the Xbow and KotC?

- I approve of making Light Cav less expensive, but dislike the fact that their precision has increased simultaneously. I read your justification in the readme, and didnt quite feel comfortable with "horses sitting still" etc. -- it really isnt easy to fire a bow from a horse.

I can always give them a +2 precision "horsebow" and drop their base precision to 8 Seriously, though, I need to find some way to make them worth buying... at precision 8, they're almost useless, but cost more than 2 (superior) foot archers. Any suggestions?

Also, it makes my Oglala mod outdated! ;-)

Not at all, they still lack the magic resistance and... um... aesthetic appeal No to mention poisoned arrows and stealth! I can also change the descriptions to something like, "Please note that this unit's stats do not reflect how clearly inferior it is to Oglala cavalry"

- Damn, I had about 4 other small points, but I will have to get back to you with those.
More testing to follow!
Thanks for your mod!

No, thank you for the feedback.

Huzurdaddi said:Nice mod I'm pretty impressed.

From my inital try it seems that I recruited a lot more cav than usual ( a good thing ).

The Matchaka archer is comical. You can build an aweful lot of those. They do seem pretty efficient. Although you need a growth dominion to feed them.

The only thing I can compain about is that it destroys a lot of my preconceived notions about what is useless and what is good. T'ien Ch'i with buff troops? Jotuns that don't run from combat? Up is down. I actually want to play man? What the heck is that all about?

Yay, pure praise As for Machaka Archers, every one you buy takes money away from Black Hunters With a Fire Arrows spell, they might become super-strong. But Machaka (IMO) is a very weak nation aside from their Black Hunters and Bane Spiders, so maybe that's OK...

Scott Hebert said:A short update from my end.

I've just gotten back from a trip. I'll be making my way through the rest of the commanders (probably just national for now) and posting the info on my own thread. It might be interesting to see what would happen if you played a game with both Cherry's unit mod and my (hopefully forthcoming) commander mod.

Sounds good to me! I'm looking forward to the Commander mod, though I will say that Recruitable Rebalance does affect some commanders: generally commander versions of normal troops, like Paladins, Niefel Jarls, Black Lords, Lord Guardians, Prince Generals, and all mounted commanders. Usually it just changes their stats or equipment (Tien Chi imperial consort gets a "slap" weapon). Very few prices were changed, and the only magic path change was the Prince General, who got Holy-2. So with minor exceptions, the mods should be fully compatible.

That said, I'm going to leave the forums and try to finish the magic / low magic mod.

[Scott Hebert]

Cool. Most of those guys would just get cheaper, on my end.

I don't plan, at this time, to do anything but shift costs around.

[tinkthank]

OK, some more:

I like the strat-2 move of most bowmen, fine. I would prefer them to maintain their 10-precision, however, for their cheaper price.

So I have this changed in my mod of your mod:

Heavy Archer Prec 10
Heavy Xbow prec 10
Indy Longbowmen: prec 10

Mari Xbow: prec 10 (Context of Cheaper Flagellants, cheaper units of your mod)
Flagellants: GCost 7 (still dirt cheap IMO, thats the upkeep of a modded Militiaman too!)
Knight of the Chalice: Stays at 90. Did you feel he has no niche at 90?

Lobos Gcost 4 (too good at 3) (Cherry, do you play Ryleh? Lobos are hands down the BEST recruitable fodder in the game, I loved them at 5 gold; you cant compare them to Militia, which rout -- these guys will sit there and take a beating, and I think 4 gold is a fine price to pay for the difficult task of lobotomizing those poor froggies.)

Warlock Apprecs: GREAT change with the douse, but nix fear, prec stays at 8 (for no increased cost) (who cares, they cast prec100 spells anyhow)

Riderless Spiders given smallish gold cost (30 hunter spider, 10) -- you have to pay for food, heheh -- but seriously, no upkeep is too good for these units

Machaka Archer 11 prec for 6 gold? (I dont know about this yet, havent had time to test. I think it may be too good, unsure.)

Vaetti cold resistance: Fine. Why not Nornae and Seithkonae 25 CR too!?

Here's a question, since you were so thoughtful to change all those descriptions: The Salamander still reads something like "When injured, can erupt in flames??" -- but it never does. Would it be possible to mod the unit so that OnDeath: small area fire?

Cu Sidhe: No supply bonus. (Do you eat your dogs?)
D. Sidhe: No reduced price. Why make them even cheaper?

All (Light) Cavalry: Kept the drastically reduced price, but maintained the low horsey precision. No, we will have to invest in Wind Guide or Aim or something.

Am wary about giving all those cavs higher morale, too. It is not the rider, but the horse which is hard to control.

OK that is all I had the time for so far, really must work, but will try to do this more systematically soon.

Thanks for all your work -- great mod!

[rabelais]

I love the idea of this mod. Go Saber Cherry!

Some comments:

1. Hunterspiders that lost their riders were already upkeep free

2. AP Longbows is overkill, IMHO. Perhaps give them a reduced chance to be stopped by shields, instead?

BF has to endure much to get (AP) rangers. Which leads to:

3. Rangers were plenty good already. Fear them buffed.


Rabe the Generally Enthused

[TheSelfishGene]

Great mod! Really addressed some outstanding issues. I do have some short thoughts on the mod however;

Cavalry is perhaps a bit too cheap. There is a substantial difference between 10 armor and 20 armor; its not just double in effectiveness, its like 4-5x. So when you make, say, Black Knights cheaper AND stronger, they become pretty much the buffest national units in the game. Which may or may not be a bad thing, balance is not a zero sum game and Ulm pays for its Knights by being weak in many other areas, but i gather the Cavalry mod was added in at the last minute and didn't go through as rigerous a testing procedure.

I like the Firbolg Rule of Thumb; is this recruitable unit better than a 10 gem, 5-Path Firbolg? If it is, and its only costing me 50 gold, you might need to think about adjusting something here or there.

Short Bow archers seem useless now compared to xbows because everything has fairly decent armor. I think, imo, a bit too much armor was added to the game...at least with indie troops.

Some random thoughts and obserations:

Prince General has not been improved. Still 10/10 hitpoints.

Lowbowmen have 10 precision instead of 12? That should be changed back. I'm not really certain i like the Change; a weaker, faster firing crossbow...

I like the Change to Imperial Tien Chi troops.

Could you buff Black Forest Ulm's Illuminated One's somehow? Give them the assassinate abiliy, or a slight chance of causing bad luck in the province they occupy. They aren't bad, but BF Ulm is a pretty weak theme that relies almost 100% on a buffed VQ. Trying to play them WITHOUT a combat VQ is a very difficult exercise with their limited magic skills and poor morale troops. The Illuminated Ones are well rounded but rather inefficient per cost; and with death, BF Ulm has a hard time with upkeep, so a 160 gold non sacred caster is more expensive in the long run he looks at first. I see the I.O.s as a kind of traveling old man, with train of servents and hooded girls behind him, journeying to dine at the tables of foreign kings and dignitaries; practising unholy rights at night in his room when no one is looking, throwing poisonous converational barbs at state dinners, subtly manipulating the crowd, stirring up strife wherever he goes, and sometimes just for kicks dominating some poor serf to go burn his own house down, or kill some noble he disliked.

So i'm fond of them but would like them to a be a bit more powerful than they are now.

[Scott Hebert]

BF Ulm? Mass Ranger annihilation works well, so I hear.

Illuminated Ones, as written, are rather disappointing. Granted, they ARE spies, and they should pay for it, but it could work out better. For me, changing Illuminated Ones/Members of the Second Tier from Astral Primary to Blood Primary would be a useful thing to do.

Illuminated One: B
Member of the Second Tier: SBB

Anyway, just a thought.