MBT's

[DRG]

now entered......

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well like I said back in early June, trying to keep up on tracking these issues and I see it's been quite here for a while when there's so much happening in this area. So consider this FYI with some minor changes for some starting with the first entry. I will not due to time issues be able to finish this tonight. Consider this Part I. I will do this alpha by country. As a reminder an "ADD" is assumed with End Date DEC 2025 unless otherwise noted. Also what might be requested again are minor issues so, the refs submitted represent a "composite" taken from other refs. If this was a new piece of gear I would as always "bombard" Don as the record has shown with many more refs.

1. I don't remember if ECM devices contribute to EW ratings for tanks. I would think some minor adjustment would be made only for the fact if so equipped they tend to tie into the countermeasures on board in timing the proper launch protocols for the inbound threat. So I'm going with that for now...

A1. ALGERIA/ADD/JUN 2018/T-90SA/COPY UNIT 027/WITH SHTORA-1//
Article is from May, it's indicating system is already installed on some tanks. June seems like a safe month, however, if you wish to be more conservative then I recommend NLT OCT.

C1. ALGERIA/CHANGE/UNIT 027/T-90S/TORD T-90SA//
All Algerian T-90S (Standard export version.) were modified somewhat for desert warfare to include, I know, AC (But remember folks AC isn't for the crew but for the electronics.) and therefore designated T-90SA.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/may_2..._53005161.html

FYI HEADLINE/AUSTRILIA/MIA1 TO BE UPGRADED TO THE MIA2 LEVEL/HAVE ALREADY SEEN ARITICLES TO INDICATE THEY WILL ALSO GET TROPHY INSTALLED/TRACKING/GUESS/SHOULD HAVE ENOUGH UNITS UPGRADED AND IN THE FIELD BY OCT 2022//
https://www.armyrecognition.com/febr...s_planned.html


With 5 minutes to spare I leave you to spend time with CINCLANTHOME.


Regards,
Pat

[luigim]

https://defence-blog.com/army/turkis...FLurs6VxCE44s8

[DRG]

OK 18 months from now is the new start date ( May 2020 )....this is the third or fourth revision for that tank IIRC. The first hint that this tank was under development was in winspmbtV4 ( 2008 ) and the start date then was set for 2016.

[Aeraaa]

Originally Posted by DRG

OK 18 months from now is the new start date ( May 2020 )....this is the third or fourth revision for that tank IIRC. The first hint that this tank was under development was in winspmbtV4 ( 2008 ) and the start date then was set for 2016.

And the first plan was a grand one for 1000+ Altays. Turks are even worse than Russians in setting realistic goals.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Unintended PART II...

Well I'll take some responsibility for not having suggested a new date myself, however, I needed more data which didn't become available until after mine and CINCLANTHOME had to get and take over the planning of my last boats 25th Ann.

A brief I promise, history...I can't even remember when I first submitted a change to this tank (I don't believe I submitted it w/o checking hard copies.) in the very beginning. This MBT (And OOB which Don and I worked on together last year or year before and fixed-we hope.) along with a couple of others have been a real PITA!! Once the Germans and Austria (Engines) got involved after the South Koreas stepped seemed to have a good relationship with Turkey. They experienced some technical (All) as well as financial issues (Turkey) which I believe caused the first date change. The second and third were caused by Germany first, then Austria next to pull out due to human rights issues and the purge after the attempted coup. Germany was thinking about getting back in the game but backed off after Turkey invaded part of Syria and started operations of a limited scale against the Kurds.

The real "Big Hurt" was two fold Austria not supplying the engine and the Government pressing OAKAR to come off the coat per unit for the ALTAY. This was difficult for OAKAR to do as they developed the tank and bore the cost to do so.

The result has been an almost two year delay in rebidding the contract between three of Turkeys largest defense contractors to build it and develop a home grown 1500hp they've never attempted before. The contract issues have just been completed this summer I believe in June.

To one extent or another this is all covered in my refs. below and selected posts I'm supplying. To be sure, there are many more Posts before those selected concerning the ALTAY (May it, the ARJUN and ARMATA "RIP" someday!)

The date submitted is from the time frame of the original contract
as will be shown in quotations below.

Based on the information I'm submitting I don't see that MBT in service until JUN 2021. Most of the operational testing regarding the engine and most importantly the ability of it to act as a functioning Power Pack is out the window. The prototypes are all using the Austrian and German Power Packs-they now and they can't legally copy them (Germany and Austria have not given licensing to do so.) and if they do copy them you can forget seeing them in this game as they just might be tied up in court that long.

And finally if my date is wrong and it's sooner than later, well, good for the game and won't it be nice to change a date to the left for a change!?! Glass half full kind've guy really!?!

POSTS See TURKEY: #783 FEB 20th and #792 MAR 12th 2018.

And...
http://www.armyrecognition.com/april...ttle_tank.html

"Previously, in the 2017-2021 Strategic Plan published by the SSM, the primary date for the first Altay Main Battle Tank entering service was set for 2020. According to the plan, the first 15 tanks will be put into service in 2020, while 20 tanks will be delivered in 2021."

http://www.armyrecognition.com/may_2...nked_soon.html

"According to Turkish defense industry sources, the mass production of the Altay MBT could started in late 2019 or early 2020." The rest of para 2 reads as the above quote does.


Didn't want to get "out of order" but felt I had to as much of my time as well as Don's has gone into all things Turkey!!


Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

This acts as a supplement to the previous Post.
And just that fast, we get the following...
Contract signed at the end of last week for 250 ALTAY MBT's. First 40 will be produced followed by the rest with no time frame given. This is the same pattern when OTOKAR (Spelled right this time.) had the original contract. The first batch were the "test beds".
https://www.armyrecognition.com/nove...ltay_mbts.html

That's what I get for reading the "papers" so late.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

PART III

This follows the "tact" as I discussed last week or whenever I posted PART I. I just pulled this off the "wire" so again Croatia will have to wait, as this article impacts both Brazil and will "dove tail" to Uruguay. I know not many players probably play these OOB's but, that doesn't mean we (I) should ignore them, after all my motto is "One World One OOB". Let's get to it...

BRAZIL/CHANGE/M-41C CAXIAS/UNIT 007/END DATE 12/1996 VICE 12/2025//. There is some evidence to support this date when the first LEOPARD tanks went into service for the Brazilian Army. These tanks were used for training purposes both before (Earlier mods.) and up to, for the sake of argument, concerning the month, 12/2009 as deemed obsolete. So that last date gives you an out however I'm feeling 80% sure of the date as submitted. I know it's not the best, but the current situation isn't correct.


Now we "dove tail"...

URAGUAY/ADD/M-41C CAXIAS/USE BRAZILIAN UNIT 007/START DATE 12/2019/LEAVE NAME UNCHANGED FOR NOW/REDESINATION UNKNOWN AT THIS TIME/WHEN ANNOUCED (IF) IT'LL BE EASIER TO FIND AND FIX//. I've not seen anything on name change or any upgrades to at least the current M-41UR BULLDOG that has slightly better armor numbers. These tanks will by Brazil be fully maintained before delivery.

These tanks will replace the last of the M-24 CHAFFEE tanks in service with the Uruguayan Army. So...

URAGUAY/CHANGE/M-24UR CHAFFEE/UNIT 005/END DATE 06/2019 VICE 12/2015//. I feel that's a good overall date, it generally takes a little longer to "pull something out than put it in" and this will allow more then enough time to retrain the M-24 crews to man the "new" M-41C Brazilian received tanks.


I think that about covers it and I need to get ready for work. Again, a "composite" ref.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/nove...ayan_army.html

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
My apologies first off, before I left to get ready for work on the last post, I know I rechecked it and still missed the now fixed and in bold intended date shown below. I just had DEC in my head from the previous Brazil entry I guess!?! Sorry I know how very busy you are right now. At 0500 I must be more awake now!?!

URAGUAY/ADD/M-41C CAXIAS/USE BRAZILIAN UNIT 007/START DATE 1/2019/LEAVE NAME UNCHANGED FOR NOW/REDESINATION UNKNOWN AT THIS TIME/WHEN ANNOUCED (IF) IT'LL BE EASIER TO FIND AND FIX//.

This allows for almost 4 months to get these 25 tanks ready for delivery and into the field.


Regards,
Pat



.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

PART IV redux after losing first @ 0400.

News first than we'll take a journey into the OOB.
FYI HEADLINE/CROATIA/M-84A4 SNIPER and M-84D TO BE UPGRADED TO THE M-95 DEGMAN LEVEL//TRACKING/GUESS/SHOULD HAVE UNITS UPGRADED AND IN THE FIELD BY 10/2020/IF THIS HOLDS TRUE, THAT WOULD MARK THE END DATES FOR THOSE TWO M-84 VARIENTS// Budget was approved in 02/2018. Assume work has begun if budget is on the Calendar year, if not and they are on a standard Fiscal year, work should have started around 10/2018 or 11/2018.

FYI/HEADLINE/CROATIA/M-95 DEGMAN/APPARENTLY THEY SEEK TO UPGRADE IT TO MEET NATO STANAG REQUIRMENTS. THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN COLLABRATING WITH SWISS RUAG TO DEVELOP A SMALL CALIBAR (L44?) 120mm MG TO ALSO MEET NATO REQUIRMENTS/TRACKING/THEY ARE ON A UNKNOWN TIMELINE TO GET THIS DONE FROM NATO/GUESS/06/2021//

I'm to do this in as close to the listing in the OOB as possible.

First CROATIAN M-84 progression/hierarchy: M-84, M-84A (Both Out of Service.), M-84A4 SNIPER, M-84D and M-95 DEGMAN.

YUGOSLOVIA (Built in the State of CROATIA) developed the M-84 as an improved version of the SOVIET era T-72M1M export version. This build issue will cause a start date change for one tank, but, if not you at least know what I was thinking at the time.

Alright here we go...

CROATIA/CHANGE/M-95 DEGMAN/UNIT 008/TI/GSR 40 VICE VISION 35/DELETE LAHAT/DELETE 12.7mm M87 AAMG/ADD Samson RWS 12.7mm HMG//Based on the refs to be provided with the builder one provided directly below, the argument can be made that this tank has a DETECTION RNG. OF >4000m/RECOGNITION RNG. >2000m it is considered an advanced 2nd GEN System. LAHAT was never exported to CROATIA and no site I've come across (And I don't use WIKI anything.) mentions any CROATIAN tank being armed with the LAHAT. Further ref. is also directly below the first one as they are exclusive to this tank. Dates covered 1990 - 2017 for SIPRI search.
Finally I chose this tank because the ERA is where it should be.
http://ddsv.hr/download/Tenk_Degman_engleski.pdf
All optional equipment was acted upon to include FCS & 1200HP German engine etc.
http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade...e_register.php

Israel "Delivered" "Weapon" "Order" "Delivered"
R: Croatia 2 Hermes-450 UAV 2006 2007 2
8 UT-25/UT-30 IFV turret 2017 HRK94 m ($14.8 m) deal; UT-30MK2 version for 6 AMV IFV; delivery planned 2018

UT-30MK2 as highlighted should be delivered by now.

Reporting to SIPRI is governed by Treaties and International Law among the factors they use.

CROATIA/CHANGE/M-84 & M-84A/UNITS 012 & 013/END DATE 12/2007 VICE 12/2025//All previous active T-84 mods were upgraded to the M-84A4 SNIPER standard by 2008.

CROATIA/DELETE/M-95 DEGMAN/UNIT O15//If anything these might have represented the two prototype tanks that were produced and not put into service.

CROATIA/CHANGE/M-84D/UNIT 020/DELETE 12.7 M2 (SLAP)/ADD 12.7mm M2 CROWS RWS//

CROATIA/DELETE/M-84D/UNIT 021/REDUNDANT TO UNIT 020/AGAIN NO LAHAT//

CROATIA/CHANGE/M-95 DEGMAN/UNIT 023/USE MODIFIED UNIT 008 IF ADAPTED AS BASE/DELETE 12.7mm M87 AAMG/ADD Samson RWS 40mm AGL//

CROATIA/DELETE/M-94 DEGMAN/UNIT 024/REDUNDANT//

I can find no evidence that any of these tanks had a "mid-life" upgrade of any kind. Besides other factors, this drove some of the above.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/febr...nks_fleet.html
https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/33033
http://tanknutdave.com/the-yugoslavi...r-m-84-series/
https://www.militaryfactory.com/armo...p?armor_id=629

Ref. 3 does a nice job of breaking these tanks down but more importantly along with Ref. 4 to a lesser degree, discuss the various mods across the countries that operated the M-84.

Doing the best I can.

Regards,
Pat