Thuggity Thug [efficient thug builds]

CelestialGoblyn · #1 May 24th, 2007, 06:24 PM

I saw there's a threas about super combatant builds for pretenders and it mentions how it is harder to outfit SC's than mere 'thugs'.

But myself, I know next to nothing about thugs. So those of you who are already experienced, please share your thug builds as an example?

It doesn't have to be anything fancy, just what it pays off to add to an army when going to war against your first enemy...

quantum_mechani · #2 May 24th, 2007, 06:38 PM

When I think of a thug, I don't think so much of them supplementing armies, more as lone raiders. Like the classic black servant with armor and maybe a luck pendant.

CelestialGoblyn · #3 May 24th, 2007, 07:09 PM

Quote:

quantum_mechani said:
When I think of a thug, I don't think so much of them supplementing armies, more as lone raiders. Like the classic black servant with armor and maybe a luck pendant.

Okay, tell me more. I'm really new to some aspects of the game. Black servant with armour and luck pendant? And how do I use him? Get few of them and attack? Attack who? 'quite well defense' provinces?

Quote:

What's your Pretender, what nation are you playing, and what magic paths are you using?

Well, many. At the moment I'd be especially interested in tips for the following:
LA Ulm with blood&death pretendder
EA C'Tis with an all-path pretender
EA Ermor with an earth pretender
MA Ermor with a death pretender
LA Marignon with a fire&astral pretender
Vanheim with a water&earth pretender

quantum_mechani · #4 May 24th, 2007, 07:49 PM

Quote:

CelestialGoblyn said:

Okay, tell me more. I'm really new to some aspects of the game. Black servant with armour and luck pendant? And how do I use him? Get few of them and attack? Attack who? 'quite well defense' provinces?

Use them to raid whoever you are at war with, generally raiding thugs rely on stealth or flying to dodge defending armies. Even the weakest thugs are usually capable of taking out 1-20 points of PD for most nations.

Of those nations you mention, by far the easiest to thug with is Vanhiem, your recruitable commanders with the right bless hardly even need equipment to tackle a lot of PD. Even without a bless, you might try something like girdle of might/luck pendant/frost brand, cast mistform and attack in battle. Of course the exact setup varies based on your indy mage availability and the randoms on your mages.

Lazy_Perfectionist · #5 May 24th, 2007, 09:51 PM

Quantum_mechani, I'm quite a bit new, also, but that strat may be useful in my current C'tis vs. Ulm game. With a black servant thug, versus PD, how many thugs would you recommend and what level of construction research?

As to specifically which toys, I'll enjoy figuring that out for myself. But I'd rather not sacrifice my rare astral gems before their time. So.. Trinkets enough? Or do I need lesser or greater, etc.

Thank you.

HoneyBadger · #6 May 24th, 2007, 10:25 PM

Two really nice low level items to forge are Pendant of Luck and Amulet of Antimagic. They're both Astral 1. You can forge them as soon as you have the construction and the gems, and they're incredibly useful.

Ring of the Warrior is superb if you've got blood-it's equal to the amulet and pendant in general usefulness throughout the game. Ring of Warning is probably the 4th corner of decent low-level misc. magic items. The 10 guards are nice, but the patrol bonus helps you tax your citizens into the ground for extra gold.

Snake-ring is great to put on thugs that can't use weapons, or have life-drain since it gives 100% poison resistance and poison touch.

Black Bow of Botulf is a good weapon, and it's low level.

Eye of aiming is great in combination with a magical bow, when you're thugging, just understand that it curses your thug, so make sure he's using his bow in the back of your army.

Axe of sharpness is a good choice if you're going to have your thugs dual-wield, since the damage is high and they're short weapons. 2 of them plus a ring of the warrior on an assassin can really increase your kill-factor. Serpent Kryss is better though, if you have nature magic, unless you're attacking someone with good armor or poison resistance.

The enchanted pike isn't a bad weapon either, because of the high length and the fact that it's magical. It's great if you're going up against etherial forces or have to guard against horrors. Thorn staff is good here too.

Copper Plate is decent low level armor, as is Fire Plate, depending on what you want to resist.

Horror helmet is probably the best low level hat around, but I find Horned helmet useful at times too.

Avoid boots, until you can forge atleast Greater magical items. They're basically a waste, except for Birch Boots-absolutely great-and Boots of the Behemoth, and they're only sometimes useful for some nations-EA Atlantis is the top one.

quantum_mechani · #7 May 24th, 2007, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Lazy_Perfectionist said:
Quantum_mechani, I'm quite a bit new, also, but that strat may be useful in my current C'tis vs. Ulm game. With a black servant thug, versus PD, how many thugs would you recommend and what level of construction research?

As to specifically which toys, I'll enjoy figuring that out for myself. But I'd rather not sacrifice my rare astral gems before their time. So.. Trinkets enough? Or do I need lesser or greater, etc.

Thank you.

Well, at a very basic level the black servant thug can be done with just black steel armor from construction 0. Regardless of your build, you will want some kind of body armor, but everything else is more or less optional. Ulm has some pretty good PD though, so unless they are setting it very low you might want a helm and shield too, and the barkskin amulet is another very handy option. The one thing definitely do not want to do is replace the servant's life drain weapon, that's what will keep him going during long fights.

HoneyBadger: Ranged weapon wielding commanders are not generally considered thugs, and combining them with any other equipment apart from eyes of aiming is usually a waste.

HoneyBadger · #8 May 24th, 2007, 06:57 PM

What's your Pretender, what nation are you playing, and what magic paths are you using?

Saxon · #9 May 25th, 2007, 01:52 AM

Just my view, but a thug is likely to be fighting alone and usually hand to hand. They need to be able to dish it out, but also need to be able to take it. The thunder bow might well clean out PD in the set up your describing, but what happens if the enemy units reach him and fight hand to hand?

The Jotan with bow is a good unit, but a support unit.

HoneyBadger · #10 May 25th, 2007, 02:04 AM

I would call any unit capable of successfully fighting alone, an SC. That's the point of an SC, that they can take and hold territory by themselves.

Thugs come in groups and work in groups as a unit.
Thugs are the A-team, they're commandos. They're small, elite units that can perform independently from your army, but not from each other.

SCs are Superman. They do it all by themselves.

I would call anything specialized-like an assassin or a scout-a support unit, not a thug.