Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?

[Slygar]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
It SHOULD look more like this:
Name.........Nation........Kills........Exp
Hooshang.....Caelum..........781.........65
Kavay....... Caelum..........699.........45
Frenay.......Caelum..........678.........46
Kavata.......Caelum..........521.........42
Lady Dark....Ermor...........150.........89
Buffy........Man.............102.........40

This is off topic, but has anyone ever tried Vengeance of the Dead on people that have kill Ratings like that? I try to spam it on any pretenders I see in the hall of fame, and its gotten me a few VQs as well.. MR might block it, though, since it doesnt always work, but I'm not sure if it just says "they managed to resist it" if MR stopped it, or if they won the battle - which is obviously not likely after 700 or so

This is one reason I would love to see Hall of Fame heroes appear in scout reports like pretenders do

[ May 08, 2004, 05:53: Message edited by: Slygar ]

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Slygar:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:
It SHOULD look more like this:
Name.........Nation........Kills........Exp
Hooshang.....Caelum..........781.........65
Kavay....... Caelum..........699.........45
Frenay.......Caelum..........678.........46
Kavata.......Caelum..........521.........42
Lady Dark....Ermor...........150.........89
Buffy........Man.............102.........40

This is off topic, but has anyone ever tried Vengeance of the Dead on people that have kill Ratings like that? I try to spam it on any pretenders I see in the hall of fame, and its gotten me a few VQs as well.. MR might block it, though, since it doesnt always work, but I'm not sure if it just says "they managed to resist it" if MR stopped it, or if they won the battle - which is obviously not likely after 700 or so

This is one reason I would love to see Hall of Fame heroes appear in scout reports like pretenders do

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IIRC Vengeance of the Dead does not work on undead beings.

[Norfleet]

Vengeance of the Dead doesn't work on undead beings, and tends to bounce off of anything that qualifies as an SC pretender chassis, due to the combination of god-class MR and magic-resistance items.

This is probably why the potentially game-crashing nature of Vengeance of the Dead isn't mentioned much: According to my measurements, the game battlefield isn't really physically capable of holding more than about 3000 units, as the dimensions of the battlefield, if jampacked, wouldn't support more than that for any given side....

[Tris]

What you list there is pretty standard for any magic powered SC... ie researching Alteration 3 and Enchantment 1. And that can be achieved in 5-7 turns depending on whether your SC needs anything forged, so I wouldn't call it "mid game".

My reasoning was that if the alternative starts winning provinces on turn 1, and you wait till turn 5 (your earliest estimate) your alternative would have 5 more provinces than you by then, and
1+2+3+4+5 = 15 turns more province income ASSUMING that he doesn't reinvest that income to capture more provinces. So if there is such an alternative, the VQ suggested can hardly be considered a good "early expansion" pretender.

[Chris Byler]

One of the problems with VQs, and equipped SCs in general, is that it's too easy to become invulnerable to all elements (counting poison as an "element" because it's a form of attack that you can easily become immune to). All but the most powerful items (artifacts and maybe the dragon scale armors) should give no more than 50-75% reduction, and anything that gives multiple resistances should give no more than 25%, or 50% if that's ALL it does.

It's ok to make it possible for someone to become immune to *one* element. But becoming immune to *all* elements makes you immune to the vast majority of attack spells, all at once, and that's what leads to the unkillable monsters we have now.

Of course, the fact that a lot of SCs are undead and thus naturally immune to cold and poison and fatigue doesn't help. Lesser undead counterbalance this by being vulnerable to banishment, but it's pretty trivial to make an SC essentially immune to banishment. A Greater Banishment with high precision, AOE 1 square, and a high magic penetration bonus (or no MR save) would help here.

IMO, most corporeal undead should have no more than 50% cold and 75% poison resistance inherently. Maybe 100% poison for things with no flesh at all (longdeads). But hardly anything with a body should be completely immune to cold. Although it may not affect them as much as it would a living being, it still can damage them.

I think this would help Water Magic, too - currently it's hampered partly by the fact that a lot of things are immune to most of its battlefield spells, in addition to its other weaknesses.

[proteus]

SCs are a huge problem imho. They are killing machines. Killing whole armies with 1 SC makes no sense imho.

Oh and I totally agree with Chris Byler.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
IMO, most corporeal undead should have no more than 50% cold and 75% poison resistance inherently. Maybe 100% poison for things with no flesh at all (longdeads). But hardly anything with a body should be completely immune to cold. Although it may not affect them as much as it would a living being, it still can damage them.

Undead are immune to cold because they don't suffer from the effects associated with it, such as frostbite and hypothermia. If you were to say they shouldn't be immune to cold, then neither should Jotuns, or Caelumians. Since cold attacks in the game tend to be around the level of "normal" cold, as opposed to liquid nitrogen cold, it's reasonable to expect them to be unaffected.

They're immune to poison because they have no metabolism and thus are not affected by poisoning of any kind. If you were to say they shouldn't be immune to poison, then nothing ELSE would be immune to poison either.

A Greater Banishment with high precision, AOE 1 square, and a high magic penetration bonus (or no MR save) would help here.

It's called "Solar Rays", Chief. Dust to Dust is a little less precise, but also has the same effect: Both deal unresistable damage to undeads. Wither Bones does this over an area.

[ May 10, 2004, 15:48: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Byler:
IMO, most corporeal undead should have no more than 50% cold and 75% poison resistance inherently. Maybe 100% poison for things with no flesh at all (longdeads). But hardly anything with a body should be completely immune to cold. Although it may not affect them as much as it would a living being, it still can damage them.

Undead are immune to cold because they don't suffer from the effects associated with it, such as frostbite and hypothermia. If you were to say they shouldn't be immune to cold, then neither should Jotuns, or Caelumians. Since cold attacks in the game tend to be around the level of "normal" cold, as opposed to liquid nitrogen cold, it's reasonable to expect them to be unaffected.

They're immune to poison because they have no metabolism and thus are not affected by poisoning of any kind. If you were to say they shouldn't be immune to poison, then nothing ELSE would be immune to poison either.

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Undead aren't all the same. It's one thing to say that longdead, or even soulless/corpse men, have no metabolism; but vampires clearly must have some sort of metabolism or they couldn't drink blood and derive benefit from doing so. And the spell that creates ghouls is called Arouse Hunger - a pretty strong implication that ghouls have a metabolism, even if it is an unnatural one.

I also don't think it's unreasonable for Jotun or Caelum cold resistance to be reduced to 50%. From a balance perspective, both of those nations are very strong already, and frankly, water magic is weak even against things that aren't immune to it. And from a realism perspective - no corporeal, non-magic being should be 100% immune to cold to begin with.

quote:

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A Greater Banishment with high precision, AOE 1 square, and a high magic penetration bonus (or no MR save) would help here.

It's called "Solar Rays", Chief. Dust to Dust is a little less precise, but also has the same effect: Both deal unresistable damage to undeads. Wither Bones does this over an area.

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All the spells you mention (and a few you didn't, such as Holy Pyre) are *magic* spells: they require research and specific paths of magic. I propose a *priest* spell that is useful against small numbers of high MR "elite" undeads - or, if enough priests are casting it, against undead supercombatants not supported by an army.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
All the spells you mention (and a few you didn't, such as Holy Pyre) are *magic* spells: they require research and specific paths of magic. I propose a *priest* spell that is useful against small numbers of high MR "elite" undeads - or, if enough priests are casting it, against undead supercombatants not supported by an army.

I believe the spells you are looking for are "Smite Demon", and "Smite". Smite Demon is a P3 spell which is supposed to be more effective against single targets. Smite is a P5 spell that causes even more damage, but is not really specific to undead. Both of these spells suffer from the MR-negates problem, however, so without either massed fire and/or penetration aids, they will tend to bounce off of pretender-grade MR.

Of course, most of the nations with powerful priests have priests that are also mages: Theurgs, Inquisitors, Witch Hunters, etc. Other nations have mages that are perfectly adept at doing the job without a priest spell anyway: Sauromancers, Deep Seers, etc.

[Chris Byler]

Send me a .trn file containing a battle replay where an equipped VQ - even without wishes - is taken down by any of those spells - or even all of them at once - and I'll shut up.

Otherwise, I'll continue to maintain that those are inadequate counters to high-MR 0-fatigue SCs (particularly, but not necessarily limited to, pretenders) - either too low precision or dependent on MR penetration.

We aren't even bothering to list the elemental attack spells, because they're even less effective. If your SC gets taken down by *those* you didn't equip it properly. Although they *could* work - if the game was modified so that you couldn't gain more than 100% resistance from items and spells combined, thus creatures that are inherently weak to an element would still take SOME damage from it no matter how much magical protection they tried to amass. Make that change and the VQ fire weakness 50% (if she isn't already), and Incinerate would be able to deal with her, if you had enough mages casting it to overcome her regeneration and life drain. (An undead or lifeless screen would negate the life drain for as long as it Lasted.)