AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent

[Alneyan]

For the reproduction characteristic, its cost to increase seems to be 50 points in the PvK balance mod, that is cheaper than in AIC. Granted, I will keep such criticisms from when you have done adapting PvK Balance Mod for AIC 4.0 (A very... erh... balanced mod incidentally) And yes, to have low reproduction on not very populated worlds is intentional for Proportions and AIC.

As for the events, well, chances settings have been reported to alter the results, but is that pure randomness (not likely) or is there something hidden there? At least, I believe we can all agree Homeworlds *can* be targeted by events under certain circumstances at least?

But how unfrequent would it be with Heroes and the new events file for AIC 4.0, with numerous Empires? I fear there will be a lot of testing and tweaking with regards to these events, except if someone manages to find out the way they are working. (Of course, if you need me for testing something, I would gladly do so. As long as you don't ask me to do actual modding. )

[JLS]

Veneration was presented with {Can Be Removed := False} as such so players may add the proposals to there existing AIC v3.02 as in a way they may utilize and play with it.

However in the Released Version, {Can Be Removed := TRUE} will be the setting and as such Players may remove Veneration from the [Technology allowed Menu] in that game.
In other words, the Heroes Epic can be removed from a multiplayer game

Reference
Name := Veneration
Group := Applied Science
Description := Civilization Heros, Idols and Gods dabble with the events.
Maximum Level := 5
Level Cost := 1000
Start Level := 1
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 7
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

[ September 20, 2003, 20:48: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

BUMPED for Edit:

Originally posted by Alneyan:

JLS, as events are a really weird thing, perhaps we should try to set a few tests in different conditions to see what happens? (A test with Low chance for an event, another with Medium and High, yet another with two systems and two human players, another with 255 systems and 20 empires and so on) I mean, there are so many weirdness with the events that we might consider *every* possibility. (And of course, all these tests should use the same file just in case) Hopefully we might make sense of all these contradictory results. (Like the case of 0.0 with the planet conditions for instance)

Agreed, if one wants to publish a serious test finding, then a benchmark with parameters must be established and agreed upon by some majority; first

Then secondly and most of all; not influenced until that test is completed and published.

Would all not agree?

EDIT:
Also to say, I very much do concur and agree with PTFs initial test results from the High/Cat Thread
Home World is less likly to be effected by high and Cat events.
His Lucky versus Cursed results
AIC having to many rebellions from the v4.01 events files; at 90% Chance considerer

Although I would have preferred a 40% test, I have found PTF�s test very successful and informative, and to date many tendencies I may have in regards to the Events file adjustments will be subject from his Initial Test.

Alneyan, it would truly be appreciated if you would run some tests of your own, with varying and logical in-game parameters as PTF did with his 90% 4 Player test, if time would permit you.

Again one more time, I want to thank PTF for his time with that test, we all did get much from it

[Fyron]

Except that recent findings show that his whole first test game might be invalid... what with the total randomness of some games having tons of events and some having almost none with his latest tests. It is possible that that first game fell into the "almost none" Category (stretched for 90% events occurance, of course...). Do not discount the bizarre nature of computer random mathematics.

[ September 20, 2003, 21:52: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[JLS]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Except that recent findings show that his whole first test game might be invalid... what with the total randomness of some games having tons of events and some having almost none with his latest tests. It is possible that that first game fell into the "almost none" Category (stretched for 90% events occurance, of course...). Do not discount the bizarre nature of computer random mathematics.

What you speak is true, and valued, as you and I have discussed in recent

[ September 20, 2003, 22:26: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

[For the reproduction characteristic, its cost to increase seems to be 50 points in the PvK balance mod, that is cheaper than in AIC. Granted, I will keep such criticisms from when you have done adapting PvK Balance Mod for AIC 4.0 (A very... erh... balanced mod incidentally) And yes, to have low reproduction on not very populated worlds is intentional for Proportions and AIC.

Actually Pvks MOD as you see posted; is based for a se4 interface and hence based on Population Mass := 5

So as for Proportions and AIC; they have a base of Population Mass :=1000 and if I am not mistaken P&N the original and mother of all Population scaled MODS had a base Population Mass :=750

So adaptations will have to made for AIC and yes you in-put will absolutely be needed.

It is fair to be said, your Posts here on the AIC to date all have been tough and to the point, and all of have been FAIR.

So when you say I will keep such criticisms from when you have done



My reply is; we will value your input now and not after the Airplane has left the ground, if you know what I am attempting to say here.
- - - -

As for the events, well, chances settings have been reported to alter the results, but is that pure randomness (not likely) or is there something hidden there? At least, I believe we can all agree Homeworlds *can* be targeted by events under certain circumstances at least?

I will agree on this: I have found a lot of disagreement, thru out the forum in regards to events.

In my mind, there is only one way to balance your Events file to the results you desire for a mod.
That is to play/test your Events file in real time with real average setups and keep testing and log game after game, until you are happy with the results.

Then put it thru an AI test to see conformity If you are happy, release it to friends and then listen carefully to the feed back.

If you have faith in PTF�s test as I do, you would say it is unlikely for High/Cat Planet events to affect the Homeworld. However, I would like to see more and with different and varying parameters.

It is agreed that in all circumstances that a Home System cannot dodge a Star Destroyed event in your se4 game.
A CBEC of -99% for the Home System may help remedy this and will certainly stop all inter Planet Events. In addition to this it may also contribute little for game play with-in the big picture
- - - -

But how unfrequent would it be with Heroes and the new events file for AIC 4.0, with numerous Empires? I fear there will be a lot of testing and tweaking with regards to these events, except if someone manages to find out the way they are working.

This how I been applying my free time, balancing the newly reordered and with additional good events in conjunction with this past weeks introduction of the Hero�s Epic.
~
In regards to dispersed events true, this is dependent on total Players.

The Occurrence Percentages is by the pre-game Chance settings also to be considered is the actual total of events that could be selected in the Events file.

The Heroes Epic will apply only to chance in that System, as did the Fate shrine.

However, if the Systems Event fails the CBEC dice roll, I am unsure where it goes at that point.
If anyone has this information, please post.
- - - -

(Of course, if you need me for testing something, I would gladly do so. As long as you don't ask me to do actual modding. )

I sure can use your help, and this is exactly what you will be doing (actual modding)
In the short time, I have known you, you have influenced several changes, and we all appreciate that.

So lets make it happen

[ September 20, 2003, 23:27: Message edited by: JLS ]

[Fyron]

P&N has a population mass of 20...

[Alneyan]

It was actually much easier than what I initially believed, each facility is increasing the annual reproduction rate of the planet by X% and that is basically all. (A planet with a reproduction rate of 10% means 15% with the best facility for example)

However, isn't Reproduction too cheap to buy then? You only need 1000 points for having 110 in your Reproduction ability, which means a +10% increase of your reproduction rates. That is twice as efficient as the Organic facilities, and you do not even need to do researches or to build facilities. (On the other hand, every point after 110 costs 200 points, and this cost seems fine for me)

You will lack the Replicant Center though, which gives an additional million of settlers each turn, so perhaps this lack balances everything? (I have to admit I do not really find this facility useful, so I cannot speak about it. )

Finally, some values for the reproduction increases are lacking in the descriptions. (Mainly the cities, Cultural Centers, that is to say the Colonial Settlements, and the Replicant Centers) The problem being when you are wondering if you should build this Gestation Vat or no, as you don't know how efficient your Homeworld is for increasing the reproduction rate. If you want, I will give you the list of such facilities and the values for them.

[Alneyan]

So. As you have asked input, here you are.

* For the events: I would believe that Homeworlds cannot/are seldom targeted by High or Catastrophic events according to numerous tests. However, the Homeworlds are protected, NOT the system in which they are. It means they can be destroyed because of a Star Destruction, as a star is targeted by this event instead of a planet. Of course, this hypothesis will be wrong if anyone here has saw a player homeworld destroyed by the Planet - Destroyed event.

As for the actual tests, is there a way to log all what happens in a given game without having to actually play? PTF spoke of logs, but I am not sure if they can do that and how you can activate them. I will run a few tests, hoping there will be no weirdness to alter the results.

* For the reproduction rates: (I haven't delved yet in the other changes in PvK Balance Mod) The cost to increase Reproduction in AIC 3.2 is 1000 points for 10%, while the basic rate was around 10%. So it means a +100% increase for 1100 points, whereas the best other facility requires 1500 points for a +50% increase (that is, +5% of reproduction rate). You can achieve such results by raising Reproduction to 106 (the Threshold) for 600 points, and then Environemental Resistance to 120 for 500 points. (I forgot to see that ER was cheaper than Reproduction after Threshold before in AIC)

On the other hand, with PvK Balance Mode, you can raise Reproduction to 110 and Environemental Resistance to 150 for the same 1100 points. (That is a +20% increase in the reproduction rates) Even if you increase the basic reproduction rates by 4% (that is, a basic rate of 15%), an increase of 20% means an improvement by more than two times. (+133%) On a world with 400 million inhabitants, a reproduction rate of 35% means an increase of 14 millions each year, which is better than the Replicant Centers (10 millions a year). Therefore, the Replicant Centers would only be useful on worlds with few settlers (below 300 millions) or in conjunction with an improved Reproduction if you can spare the points.

Finally, on a Homeworld inhabited by 2,000 million settlers, +35% reproduction rate means 70 million additionaly inhabitants each year, compared to 30 millions for +15%. That is quite an asset if you have many colonies.

So, perhaps you could consider improving the efficiency of Replicant Centers or decrease the researches needed to be able to build them? (You need level 4 in Organinc Engineering and Organinc Manipulation for now) Maybe a second level for this facility, "creating" 2 million workers each turn, could be made? (Especially if you increase the basic reproduction rates)

And as for the reproduction/environemental resistance at the Empire creation, I would support an increase to both Reproduction and Environemental Resistance characteristics, so that the cost needed to have a +10% bonus to reproduction rate should be around 1500 points. (It would also depend on other factors) But this is an approximative value as deciding of a cost to increase/decrease a characteristic is quite a hard job.

Obviously, all my post was only suggestions and my own opinion, so feel free to do what you wish with it.

[Grand Lord Vito]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
Probably some day we find this unknown start setup... It could be a kind of easteregg subprocedure from MM, that sometimes is active, sometimes not.

JLS, this why I continue to advocate keeping the original AIC events file from the past. We have never seen any problems or bugs when actually playing a game with it.