MP: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM. Game Over. Noobs Triumph!

[TheDemon]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Gem generators, even aside from being unfun, are micromanagement hell. You have to have hundreds of commanders running around with gem gen items on them, and in the case of fever fetishes they'll eventually die. So you need to pass the fetishes off before that happens. Which means you need more than a constant rate of commander growth, eventually it will balloon preposterously. Gem generators are also too much of a strategy in and of themselves. If you just make enough more of them than anyone else, eventually your gem income will be so high that no one can affect you and your territories are more or less meaningless. Ask micah

The last part of that is the reason gem gens are banned. You build more and more and more and eventually your territory becomes irrelavent, since the lion's share of your gem income comes from gem gens. And then you use them to empower up a wish caster and wish for gems every turn and it gets totally ridiculous. And then you realize that every other player who also made it to turn 90 has done the same thing and it's near impossible to kill them because they've stacked 30 domes with the gems they've generated (ok, so that was patched out, mostly) and everyone quits since the tenacity needed to kill someone with an invisible gem income like that is something few players have.

And that's the main reason gem gens are unfun, nevermind the micromanagement (you click a pool all button, then readjust anything you needed to hold pearls. big micro there...).

[TheDemon]

Originally Posted by melnorjr

I'm hoping to encounter things I hadn't considered, to learn more options for my own play. I'm a strange type. Ever profiled yourself on your gamer-type? there's social gamers, achievers(many in this game are probably here), killers, etc.

I'm an explorer. To me the fun in a game is doing something I haven't done yet. Going somewhere I haven't been. I deliberately play games without looking at guides, or (in the case of dungeons in WoW or some such) fight bosses and things without already knowing how to beat them, because the most fun part is figuring it out. The fun for me is not in the having won, its in the winning. When I have learned the be all end all I-win-button in a game, I use it once, and quit playing.

From what I hear and from what I've seen however, there is no such button here.

From what I've seen however, and no negativity intended, is that what seems to define a vet is not ingenuity, or cleverness, but experience. That's a bit of a tautology of course, but what I mean to say is that among the things that define a vet are simply knowing the probably course of action of a person in a given situation, knowing tricky little mechanics that noobs don't know yet, and simply knowing how troops tend to match up - noobs tend to go overkill when attacking something, or underestimate and not fight hard enough. The vet has seen enough battles to know the right amount of force needed to do each action.

And again, no insult intended, but I haven't run into somebody beating me with what appears to be a superior cleverness or ingenuity, but generally with experience, luck, or situational advantage.

I think part of the issue is the things you're looking for us to do are just things that we'll do naturally, when the situation arises. I mean, how am I supposed to know what clever tactics you don't know?

No negativity intended here, but how about if/when we pull something you haven't seen before, you let us know what it was, and then I know I'm doing my job right.

[rdonj]

Two or more members of the noob team seem to be about to be absent at the same time, and I'm not sure we'll be able to find subs for everyone. I think it may be best to institute a delay until everyone returns. We'll cross that bridge when we get there, but here's the heads up.

Also, as it is now turn 25, here is the earnings report (turns 4-25):

Noob Gold Total - 514,775
Noob Gem Total - 3,152
Vet Gold Total - 183,816
Vet Gem Total - 1,495

Gold advantage: 2.8x
Gem advantage: 2.1x

[atul]

TwoBits: Hi, missed me?

And Caelum, bad time to go awol. :/

Damn those income scores, I seriously need to get my own dominion in my own lands...

[rdonj]

Yeah, the noobs per turn income is actually just under 5x gold and 3x gems of the vet team right now.

[melnorjr]

Originally Posted by atul

TwoBits: Hi, missed me?

I certainly did. I mean, I start fighting you, build an army to try and counter yours, and you run away and leave Marignon's angel to mess with me! Now I've got an army raiding your lands and he can't even find a single opponent!

No negativity intended here, but how about if/when we pull something you haven't seen before, you let us know what it was, and then I know I'm doing my job right.

Gladly. I do love the coordination you guys are using. 5 thugs/SCs at once?

I have to admit though in fairness, that my comment about nobody beating me with superior cleverness is somewhat irrelevant, as this being my first game, nobody has beaten me yet. Woohoo! I'm undefeated!

[atul]

Originally Posted by melnorjr

I certainly did. I mean, I start fighting you, build an army to try and counter yours, and you run away and leave Marignon's angel to mess with me!

The way I remember it that I was happily minding my very own business in the west, when your big army rudely tried to camp on my capital. Just came out of nowhere. Now, I naturally objected to that and sent your army away at the last possible moment (had to research even rudimentary elephant counters, boy I was in hurry), might've even given a chase at that point.

Anyway, since you weren't bothering me anymore I deemed it suitable to double back and make a mess out of Jotunheim. No running, and apparently you were building your army to counter mine for ten or so turns afterwards.

Originally Posted by melnorjr

Now I've got an army raiding your lands and he can't even find a single opponent!

That aint raiding (since it's the very border of my lands, and that aint raiding army (since it's costing you more in the way of upkeep than what you're getting out of the land). But, if you want to fight me you better come to my capital. You've probably noticed, I'm busy elsewhere bashing your friends.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by atul

TwoBits: Hi, missed me?

Aw, what, I'm not good enough any more for the Father of Winters? Or is he still cooling his heels in the Abyss?

Yeah, so you can raid me with impunity, for now, and kill a bunch of Hoburgs (Frodo will pay you back, Sauron! ) - don't see how that's really helping your good buddy Ashdod though.

Score so far: Noobs 1 (still 12 to go), Vets 0 (only 5 left, and one seems quite on the bubble!). Eriu ain't looking so good either - Baalz must be playing his cards extremely close to the vest...

[Septimius Severus]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Two or more members of the noob team seem to be about to be absent at the same time, and I'm not sure we'll be able to find subs for everyone. I think it may be best to institute a delay until everyone returns. We'll cross that bridge when we get there, but here's the heads up.

Hopefully, such a lengthy delay will not be necessary.

Most interesting about these often banned spells and gem generating items. I know some games ban nations as well, sometimes Ashdod I believe. I generally don't subscribe to such things (perhaps in my naivete, as I often trust too much in the developers/designers judgement/patches). Had Ashdod been banned, it would make for a less interesting/diverse game and we wouldn't be able to learn the effective counters we have learned. Ashdod has provided us with great sport.

Though I agree I don't like too much micromanagement, though I do like a certain amount. Tell me vets, can these spells be dispelled like other globals? Would removing these gem gens entirely have a specific negative impact on certain nations?

[TheDemon]

Arcane Nexus is pretty much impossible to dispel and keep dispelled, since in games of a certain size it generates far more gems in one turn than it costs. Utterdark certainly can be dispelled, but were I a player who had high level astral under Utterdark, I'd simply let the other players suffer through it and cast Solar Brilliance every battle. Course that's not fully practical, but personally I don't think Utterdark is as much of a win button as it's made out to be.

There are a few nations that would suffer under the removal of gem gens. In my opinion, Oceania and Kailasa really suffer from loss of Clams, since not only are the nations tailored for forging them but they also rely on extremely expensive astral summons that are really hard to afford otherwise (wish and the Kailasa uniques). Most ages of Abysia suffer from loss of Blood Stones, as does most ages of Argatha. Marveri relies a bit on both Clams and Blood Stones. Machaka and Yomi both can really spam Fever Fetishes, although it's more rare since a large fetish farm requires an insane ammout of extra micro.